Jack Youngblood hit the nail on the head about Urban Liar

Discussion in 'RayGator's Swamp Gas' started by largartos, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. TheRaid
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    TheRaid VIP Member

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    OrangBlue makes some logical points. They sound correct. Once upon a time, I leaned that way as well. But, they are not correct. There is a difference in psychological responses of groups of people that are informed by collective identities, collective experiences, and a sub-culture within a culture. It is true that our neighbors exist in a similarly situated environment as we do. But, our neighbors have cultural and identity factors that affect their behavior, outlook, and passions differently. It would seem plausible that all fans are about the same across the board, or at least, fans in one group act similarly to fans in another group that is close in most factors. But, it is just not true.

    Why do some groups have associations with them that are not with others? Which schools tailgate the best, are the loudest, are the most hospitable? Just because it is largely anecdotal does not make it not true.

    Here in Alabama, you can clearly see a distinction among Auburn and Alabama fans. One is definitely more arrogant and obnoxious than the other, and one group clearly has complex and it has been that way for years. They are often in the same household. But, there are differences that are real.

    Another example: Miami has a larger base of fans that did not attend the school than Florida or FSU, or heck, even UCF. There is a difference in fandome there than the other places. To dismiss those differences is to overlook significant factors.

    As for Ahia State fans and Miami fans, both groups have a much stronger reputation among many of being more obnoxious than the average fan. That is largely anecdotal, I will give you that. But, it is long-established and well-earned, and renewed in every generation. I do not see that anywhere else.

    There are distinctive characteristics of being a member of this and that group that influence who we are and who we become. It is a real psychological phenomena that cannot be overlooked. We are changed by decisions we make, groups we hang out with, our responses to events in our lives. Who we become is made up of those things. Different key decisions bring about a different road to travel with different experiences that change who we are.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
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  2. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    This still remains entirely subjective.

    The "differences" are and will always be tempered by viewpoint. We will never give Florida State fans the benefit of the doubt, for example. And if you're not a Gator fan you may well view FSU fans worse this year than you would have last year. Perspective generally leads us to be most annoyed by fans of winning teams for two reasons:

    1. They're pervasive. Some of them are bandwagoners. There are shirts everywhere.
    2. They're boisterous. Because they've won, they are loud and proud.

    Now if you encounter these types of fans in your "formative" years, you'll start to cement these perceptions. For example, in 2004 I went to the LSU game and was convinced they were the "worst" fans I'd ever met. They'd just won a MNC the year prior and they were absolutely awful. Fast forward to 2008 and wouldn't know you it, they were gracious, friendly and endearing.

    Had I not gone to the 2008 game, my perceptions could well have been cemented based on the small sample size I encountered.
  3. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    Still, a tough sell that because you don't buy the subjective accounts that fan bases are different that they must somehow all be the same.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
  4. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    You make good points on comparative qualities of average fan bases, and how some fans' perceptions might get skewed by on them.

    But as WES points out, you're still ignoring the outliers... on both the bad side (Bucknuts, WVU, Canes) and the good side (Nebraska... probably others).

    Also notice I haven't once mentioned FSU fans as being bad. They're like most other fans, except their chant is more annoying, and their QB is probably a rapist. And their school has a circus. So they have that going for them. :D
  5. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    In aggregate, absolutely. You can take 100,000 people and divide them arbitrarily into any team's fan base you choose.
  6. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    You are basically denying that there is a cultural identity tied in to any fan base.

    Anything cultural is naturally going to be difficult to prove empirically, but anecdotally, when you can get like a 90%+ congruence in people's opinion about certain aspects of a given fanbase's 'culture', you start to get the feeling that you may have stumbled on to something.... ;)

    Seems like an awful lot of fans without a particularly identifiable or ascertainable motive, have somehow arrived at this same opinion of OSU Fan, to dismiss it as 'coninkidinky'.

    It's like saying '...naw, you can't say there's a fire over yonder, just because you see an inordinate amount of smoke emanating from beyond the horizon--the only evidence you have to support such a conclusion, is anecdotal."

    Maybe the smoke from beyond the horizon comes from something other than fire; but probably not.

    (now, throw in countless eye witness accounts saying 'there is indeed fire beyond the horizon causing the smoke', and your analytical framework seems even less convincing. Not all fans bases are created equally).
  7. Distant Gator
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    Distant Gator Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought- could % of non-alumni fans be statistically significant in terms of how obnoxious they are? (If somehow that could be quantified.)

    Because non-alums can adopt onto a team, or not, based on things like coaches or winning or heritage. Whereas in another part of the country they are an NFL fan, but not in the south.
  8. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Given that a fan base spans the entirety of demographic ranges, yes, that's what I'm doing. There are millions of Gator fans across all ages and all states in this country. There are millions of Ohio State fans across all ages and states in this country. To assume that the colors you wear determine your nature is, to me, illogical.
  9. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    Because all fan bases regularly cuss out, spit on and physically attack opponent's fans? And celebrate by setting fires and rolling cars?
  10. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    All fan bases? No. Any given group of fans in any given fan base? Sure.
  11. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    We're talking primarily home crowd issues, or where there is a large travel contingent.

    Dispersed individuals don't behave the same as groups do.
  12. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    Really? Where are these other fans doing this on a regular basis?

    I sure don't hear about it with exception of the few cited, for which you can find stories and videos demonstrating their behavior every season. As has already been done in this thread.
  13. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    Not just 'the colors you wear'--but a concentrated sampling of the truest who wear those colors (i.e.--those who go to the games), combined with certain aspects of a given program's history, achievements, player and coach personalities, and the like, which resonate with the fan base in general, and the more committed who actually attends, yields a functional picture of the 'culture' of a given fan base.

    e.g.--don't you think that something about the 'tomahawk chop', and the in-your-face attitude championed by the noliles, resonates with a significant number of rude dumba$$es throughout our great state?

    e.g. 2--how about 'the U', and the gangsta culture that was overtly championed by them in the 80's--don't you think that resonates with a significant number of street thugs (and thug wanna be's/pretenders)? ...and alienates others at the same time?

    wrt to OSU--I really don't know enough about them to know what resonates with Ohioans, or not--but I do know enough non-Ohioan midwesterners who would swear on a stack of bibles, that being an a$$hole must be a prerequisite to rooting for OSU.

    You want to dismiss that as 'anecdotal'--I'll concede that it is anecdotal--but that doesn't mean the anecdotal evidence should be dismissed entirely--rather, the conclusion supported thereby should merely be discounted, mitigated, and allow for exceptions--but not dismissed.

    JMHO.
  14. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    I don't dismiss it - I just recognize that it's indicative solely of a small group and that there exists no way to validate or extrapolate that. I also know that fan bases span such dissonant groups of people that there's no plausible way that Miami fans (in aggregate) are like this and Arizona fans (in aggregate) are like that. I realize that challenges the very fun behind being a fan(atic), but I also like to be realistic and fair when dealing with people who happen to not have Albert on their baseball cap as I might.
  15. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    I'll meet you this far--I won't make an assumption about someone based on their fan allegiance, as I have known and know, many great fans of most every fanbase--including FSU (many friends from HS, and a couple of good clients), Miami (many in my family, bro=an alum, many friends from HS, and a couple of clients), and OSU (one of my best, oldest clients, is a diehard Bucknut--we go back n forth, good naturedly).

    But that doesn't prevent me from making my own assessment of those fan bases, in general--or denying that their are certain aspects--call them stereo types--that seem to be confirmed rather than denied, more often than not, about them.

    btw--I should note, that my view of 'cane fan', isn't quite in congruence with that of many others on here; most of the cane fans I know, are good people--intelligent, respectful, hard working, and not 'in your face'--but, by the same token, I can't deny seeing cane paraphernalia prominently worn--or shall I say, inordinately/disproportionately represented--amongst what I'd consider, a lower wrung of society--not just socially, but in terms of--shall we say--respect for the law. Seems that something about 'the U', resonates with gangbangers, thugs, drug dealers, druggies...street urchins....
  16. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    ^^^note also that a lot of this applies to Gators as well. A significant number of Gators--fans, not alumni--are straight up rednecks, and country bumkins. What is it about Gators, that resonates with the southern element of Florida? (yes, a statement of our times--Florida's 'southerness', by shear numbers, has been reduced to an element--as Florida is so much more than just Southern)--meanwhile, our student and alumni bodies, are significantly more 'refined', sophisticated....educated. That's kinda' how it goes...but that's also kind of a tangential.

    Point being, none of the latter, serves to nullify or negate, the general 'southern flavor' of the Gators, as it is not only ingrained in our DNA and an inseparable part of our heritage....it's also a defining part of the Gators 'culture', that resonates with the fan base at large.

    Now, that said, I'm not going to presume that someone wearing Gators attire, is 'southernn born and bred', or that their great great great grandaddy fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War, or the like, either (especially since I'm not exactly the 'southernest' of Gators...) ;).

    But who calls alligators 'gators', other than Southerners? Where are gators more than something you read about in books, or watch on nature documentaries--but an actual nuisance, and at times, pose a real threat? Who 'champions' 'gators' outside the South?

    ...and naturally, to whom therefore, is the mascot 'Gators' most likely to resonate with? And with whom does it actually, ordinarily, resonate with?

    Yep. Southerners. Yee flipp'n haw...

    GO GATORS!!
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  17. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    :D
  18. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    You're free to discount my experience with cane fans as...anecdotal. :)

    But does that mean that the general concept of Cane Fan, is therefore unfounded? ;)


    (I assume that's where you were going with that).
  19. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    It's actually the opposite of where I was going.
  20. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    IOW, the general conception of Cane Fan is well founded, notwithstanding my personal experience. I actually don't have a problem with that--it's the majority view around here, I get that....

    ....but why then, should OSU be spared of any generalizations?

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