Is this where we are headed?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by shelbygt350, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    It is a huge challenge. If it were easy we would already be doing it. Living the gospel of Christ is a good way to start. For those who want a different framework to work within, there are various moral codes and guiding principles to choose from. The American Humanist Association has 10 Commitments that would make the world a better place if they were to be universally followed.
  2. BastogneGator
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    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

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    Seriously...
    The level of equity in opportunity, presently in America, is the highest it has ever been in the world at any time. People don't want equality of opportunity, they want equality of outcome. They want to be elevated at the expense of others.
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  3. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    Except for the part where the level of equity in opportunity in America isn't even the highest in the world right now, let alone at any time.
  4. BastogneGator
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    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

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    Where is the equality of opportunity higher?
  5. shelbygt350
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    shelbygt350 Well-Known Member

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    In USA, there are way too many cases of people coming out of the depths of poverty to building a life of success, both financially and morally (family, contributions to society, etc). Simply look at the successes of the Cubans who came here immediately after Castro took over, or of the Irish , Italians, Jews, etc who came 100+ yr ago. (now dont say it was because their skin tone was light, there was a sign at Clearwater Beach in 1920s-30s that said: No Wops, Jews, or Dogs Allowed). Typically, they clustered in neighborhoods and force feed education and hard work on their children who then became more successful than the parents and in turn did likewise to their children.

    However, the pols in this Country, both sides, have focused on power for themselves with all this Govt nonsense that has not proven to be unsuccessful.

    In 1967 (?) Pres LBJ declared War on Poverty. Now 45 yr later...we lost. There is still poverty, there is still ignorance , there is still a lack of real hope.

    Take Dr Ben Carson. He was going no where in life. What were the major contributing causes of his success (forget politics)? His single Mom decided to not allow him to fail. Made him go to library and read and write a book report to her every week. He became educated and then was able to use that as a spring board to getting scholarships to college, med school, etc. Instead of looking at the Fed Govt to "entertain" him, or to sports, or to whatever, his Mom, and eventually him, seized the opportunity to succeed.

    No where in the history of Nations has there even been a country in which an individual, regardless of parents, ancestry, etc, has as much opportunity to succeed.
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  6. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, New Zealand, Canada, Australia.

    Income Inequality, Equality of Opportunity, and Intergenerational Mobility

    The pdf of the full article is a free download.

    You could make the argument that economic mobility is not the same as equality of opportunity. Several researchers have looked into that claim and found that economic mobility is a functional proxy for equality of opportunity. Since it is much easier to measure, it gets used rather than direct measures of equality of opportunity.
  7. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    Factually incorrect.
  8. shelbygt350
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    shelbygt350 Well-Known Member

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    Please give me specific countries and eras that provided such opportunity. Thanks
  9. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    8 countries and a link in the previous post.
  10. BastogneGator
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    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

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    I think the article focuses primarily on outcome and correlation rather than causation. This is the new vogue in "research". There is no denying that kids from higher socio-economic conditions tend to do better financially, however, there is no barrier to anyone regardless of race, color, sexual orientation etc to achieving as much as they can. The articles data points are all from outcome.

    "
    This suggestion that higher inequality skews opportunity and lowers intergen- erational mobility is the starting point of this paper. In particular, my focus is on the degree to which increasing inequality in the high-income countries, particularly in the United States, is likely to limit economic mobility for the next generation of young adults. "

    Doesn't prove your point only suggests the author agrees with you
  11. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    Did you read the information in the second chunk I quoted? Researchers had that same concern, some of them have done deep dives into equality of opportunity, and found that intergenerational mobility tracked well enough with the nuts and bolts of equality of opportunity that they could use intergenerational mobility as a proxy for equality of opportunity. Multiple citations in the text, full references are at the end of the article, you can look them up for yourself.
  12. shelbygt350
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    shelbygt350 Well-Known Member

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    too funny. Sweden? Really. Over the past 200 yr, there has been greater opportunity to succeed in Sweden than in USA ! Denmark? Germany ?

    Yep, I can see how much success was granted Jews in Germany in 1933-45 ! They certainly did very well.

    Oh yes, and the boat loads of hungry Italians and Irish that migrated to Denmark in 1900-1920s. They are countless.

    Common sense in some research is not so common anymore.

    I always find it interesting when people point to Sweden or Norway or some other small country and lift it up as superior to USA in opportunity, yet then look at the history and wonder why all those Stupid Jews, Italians, Cubans, Russians, Irish, Germans, etc chose the USA. It must have been the beaches.
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  13. persegator
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    Lots of countries have brought down all overtly discriminatory barriers to opportunity, the United States isn't special in that regard.

    What makes this country, in particular, stand out from any other given western market economy when it comes to the availability of opportunity?
  14. BastogneGator
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    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

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    I think they combined them to make a political point. No one is arguing that rich people's kids also seem to be rich. You have yet to answer my questions about what barriers exist that actually prevent someone from havering the opportunity to "move up".
  15. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not thinking the 8 countries listed have the unbelievable amount of poor people pouring into their countries like we have. A couple of them are actually islands. Norway just kicked out every non-white, not naturally born in Norway. Might be a reason why they just uncovered a terrorist plot against Norway. Our ability to absorb the influx of the dirt poor is certainly being tested. If any of those countries you listed had a non-stop influx of poor people like we have and continue to have, lets talk about the results then.

    Speaking of Borders, just saw a documentary on Juarez, Mexico and the narco culture. We want NO PART of that. That is some scary stuff.
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  16. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, the Narco assassins in Juarez are mostly between the ages of 12-18. These are some of the "children" crossing our border.
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  17. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    When did the discussion move to 200 years ago? Or 80 years ago? Or 100 years ago?

    Yes, during WWII there was much greater equality opportunity in the US than in Germany if you were a Jew. I don't disagree with that. I thought we were speaking more generally.

    In the distant past the US has had more equality of opportunity for white males than any other country in the world. In the 60s and 70s we had more equality of opportunity than any other country in the world. Since then we haven't.

    Considering that covers the lifetimes of about half the population in the US, our relative lack of equality of opportunity in the last 30-40 years seemed pretty relevant.
  18. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    The citations are there, have at it. If you find something that supports your claim, please post it so the rest of us can learn.
  19. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    You generally get returns related to the amount invested. Too many poor in this country refuse to invest anything in themselves but then complain about lack of return.

    As a poor white male from a single parent household I received much less support than more wealthy females and minorities. Hard work and sacrifice creates opportunity to overcome inequity. The world is not fair. No amount of redistribution or violent crime is going to change that.
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  20. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    I'm not sure how you can take a high level look at the evolving job market and say that opportunity is as abundant as it was a generation ago.

    Low and moderate skilled labor no longer affords people the abundance of opportunity to rise in class that it once did.

    The effect of technology, automation, and globalization on the job market is the 800lb gorilla few want to talk about.
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