Iraq is on the brink of civil war

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by leogator, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. HallGator

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

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    I voted for Bush twice and while I was totally against the Iraq invasion my opinion of him is not really a bad one. I still feel he was basically a good person, maybe not the smartest, who was surrounded by some people hell bent on forcible spreading of democracy. Maybe I'm wrong but that is still my feelings about him.
  2. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
  3. MichiGator2002

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    I was against the invasion prior to it beginning, but once that ship had sailed, my big beef was the ambivalent, half-assed policy governing our work there. We needed to be politically incorrect and culturally insensitive and just conquer the place and rebuild it as what we wanted it to be. Instead, what we did is going to turn out to have been a waste of their time and lives *and* ours, all because it was politically beneficial to play at not being the conqueror's/occupiers we were.
  4. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Sometimes progress is hard to perceive moment by moment. As for me, I believe that in the end, only the truth can triumph. And yes, it exists.
  5. HallGator

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

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    Let me know the day Iraq turns into an omelette.
  6. diehardgator1

    diehardgator1 Well-Known Member

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    Bush Sr knew the pitfalls that is why he stopped where he did
  7. HallGator

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

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    I agree.
  8. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    It's too bad all those lives were lost in the American, French, Russian, and Chinese revolutions, and in the resistance against Hitler and Imperial Japan. They should have just surrendered in the name of stability and saving lives. What Would Nixon Do
  9. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole Active Member

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    Good Lord, really? I hope you don't dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back because you think you're so smart.

    Long story short, whether you agreed with the decision to go in or not, the war had been won. Iraq was pacified but still required a lot of help from the US Military to provide logistical and mentorship to keep the government stable after the training wheels came off (when the majority of combat troops left). When President Bush left office that was the plan.

    President Obama tossed that plan out and then withdrew all the troops and support that Iraqi government needed. This was what a lot of us predicted would happen once President Obama announced his plan. Bottom line, logisitics and intelligence experience take a long time to develop and the Iraqi's couldn't do it on their own. Without those two things, it's hard to have an effective government and military.

    If you want to point fingers, I'd look at 44 and not 43.
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  10. wgbgator

    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    The war was a disaster, but I tend to agree with this. National self-determination can be a violent process, one that might have occured in Iraq with or without our invasion and brief occupation. If no one wants to make "Iraq" work, then other national ideas will compete for recognition. It will probably involve some pretty terrible violence. Our hands have blood on them, but I'm not sure the cause and effect is so simple. I can only hope it will serve as a learning experience.
  11. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Well said. The Iraq war itself showed that much of the proof lies in the struggle. AQ lost support by displaying the bloody brutality and tyranny that lies at the heart of their true nature. The exorcism of malignant world views of longstanding is bound to be bloody and prolonged.
  12. KelticGator

    KelticGator Premium Member

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    Regional instability will spread throughout the region resulting in market fluctuations in the price of oil. Its easy to say "let them kill each other" until you realize that things like oil production could be put directly in jeopardy which would have had drastic implications on international economies and governments around the world (which would lead to even more instability). If this was a state in Africa rather than in the Middle East you could probably just sit back and watch it all play out with little effect on the world economy.

    Also, Saddam was old and wasn't going to live forever. Its questionable whether his successor could have kept the regime together or a power grab would have plunged the country into Civil War eventually anyway.
  13. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    How long were we willing to stay in Iraq as "training wheels?" 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? More? The history of sectarian violence in Iraq should have made it obvious that no amount of reasonable time would Iraq ever develop the logistics and intelligence to develop their own, democratic government. It's the argument many of us used to not go into the country into the first place. It's simple. When the only relative times of peace in a country exist when there is a strong-arm colonial ruler, or a strong-arm, military despot, the chances of creating a peaceful democracy in a reasonable time is slim.

    Even if we has kept with the 43 plan, or even increased our troop presence, we would only be delaying the inevitable. Many people took it as demeaning that there were those of us that said Iraq wasn't "ready" to become a western style democracy, but in a region where the minority in power has zero rights and the majority in power always abuses said power, that's just a truth that should be accepted. And frankly, I'd rather have our boys out of harm's way in Iraq and let them fight it out instead of having our guys there as targets, while the best we can do is a keep the peace through proverbial better fire power ad naseum. All that keeping troops in the area would accomplish is delaying the civil war, while increasing US causality numbers.
  14. squigator

    squigator Premium Member

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    Why is civil war in Iraq a bad thing? Would you prefer that Saddam were still in power and competing with Iran for nuclear weapons?
  15. OklahomaGator

    OklahomaGator Moderator VIP Member

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    We are still in Germany and Japan!
  16. PIMking

    PIMking New Member

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    yeah but the Germans and Japanese are civilized
  17. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The Germans and Japanese don't need us there to keep the peace in order for their respective countries to survive and prosper. If we left tomorrow, each country would feel a small economic loss, but for the most part, it would be business as usual, which represents two of the biggest industrial and technological powers in the world. We are only in Japan and Germany today for strategic purposes regarding their respective geographic neighbors. I.e., much easier to launch an attack halfway around the world if you have troops already 90% of the way there.

    In contrast, leaving Iraq meant returning to business as usual sectarian violence. Would have been the same result if we left when we did, two years from now, or possibly 20 years from now or longer! Sure, we could have tried to build Iraq up like Germany and Japan, but unlike these two countries, the residents of Iraq, in general, would rather blow each other up than work together to make an Iraqi version of a BMW or Lexus.
  18. Lawdog88

    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    I largely agree with this.

    The "tribal culture" is one that is loyal to the tribal head man (our tribe, not yours), and not the next one over. Add in the idea that inter-tribal revenge and retribution for long-past feud, insult or harm carries forward for generations; that tolerance for differences is not a predominate theme; and complicate all of the above with an overlay of religious faction, competition, and misplaced zeal, and it is easy to see that, when middle-eastern tribal / religious factions fight, it is not a fight for a sense of universal rights of life, liberty, and rights for the individual . . . but only for the dominance of the next head man whom the loyal will obsequiously serve.

    The tribal culture was not produced in the Renaissance, and does not comport with the personal empowerment and individual identity of the sort commonly associated with mainstream Western cultures.
  19. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    But it's not like they're living in a culture that is hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world. I think there is a massive amount of cultural exchange that is occurring between Islam and the west right now, some of it is quite encouraging such as the rise of a secularist movement. Let's keep things in perspective. It wasn't so long ago that our ancestors ate one another.
  20. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 Well-Known Member

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    No. Revenge for this
    USA Today

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