Iran leader- the only solution is the complete destruction of Israel

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. oragator1
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    oragator1 Premium Member

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    I don't disagree with most of this, only making the point that their existence is made possible in part because of the conditions there, which Israel has a hand in, even if you think israel has acted properly.
  2. gatorman_07732
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    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you know the origins of Hamas, they just didn't show up one day in the late 80's from nowhere. What ever concessions Israel gives (and they have) will never be good enough. There is a end point to this agenda of Hama, at least as Israel's concerned.
  3. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    The only reason we speak of a two state solution is because of a right of self-determination.

    There's no way in hell the West Bank and Gaza are going to vote for "let's be part of Israel," so why in God's name would we try to force them to?

    This screams tone-deafness and a complete lack of awareness to me.

    What was the Palestinians' gripe initially? That the world kicked them out of their homes to create a zionist state. Now that you finally have Palestinian groups with some measure of power who are willing to let that huge source of anger pass and resign themselves to having only the regions that got allocated to them, we want to insist that "no, you can live there, but it has to be under the rule of that same zionist state that you'll be politically powerless in?"

    FFS, were we worried that a peaceful resolution might get reached and needed to change the calculus to make sure that we didn't accidentally stumble upon something acceptable to both sides?
  4. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what we mean by "outside of Israel."

    The Palestinians are never going to recognize an annexation of the Occupied Territories as part of Israel (and for that matter it's not clear than any country other than Israel would either).

    Could you reach a peaceful solution by having a Palestinian State in Gaza and the West Bank? I'm pretty confident that you could. Are you ever going to reach a peaceful solution with "shut up and let us annex all this and govern you?" Of course not.

    So if you mean two states? Yes, I think they could live peacefully in that situation, and with commitment to it from the leadership of both sides (you have it from Fatah now, you don't have it from either Hamas or Likud) you could get there pretty quickly.

    If you mean "move if you don't like Israel or how we treat you"? No, that would be about the worst possible solution for Palestinians of any that have ever been within the realm of possibility at any time since 1948.
  5. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Never said they had to; just that they were always welcome to. The Israelis didn't wash up out of the Mediterranean to shove away and live in permanent hostility with Arab muslims; that's what they were handed. It's called context. Israel isn't archly anti-pluralist the way that fundamentalist muslims (and, increasingly, western progressive statists) are.

    Again, never said "had to", that's 100% projection, Louisiana-style -- "bayou". Local and otherwise expatriated Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese-cum-Palestinians always could have participated in the representative state being created there (not the hegemonic iron-fisted oppressor you are describing -- even if one wanted to apply that label to Israel's relationship with the Palestinian quasi-state, it's not a dynamic that they chose so much as what was forced upon them since the only alternative they have ever been offered by their surroundings has been abject hostility.
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  6. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    There's a reason that not even Israel takes the position you are. They arguably did by actions in the couple decades immediately after 48, but they sure as hell never dared say it out loud.
  7. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Well, your first response made clear you totally whiffed on my position, so I don't know if I've done a better job explaining it or you a better job understanding it, but in the meantime, I have no idea what position you are attributing to me, distinct from Israel.

    Here's the position that Israel holds that matters -- they get to live their lives without perpetual attack from their neighbors, period. Everything they have done for 66 years has been bent toward that objective and what they are doing now is as well. They are on the objectively higher moral ground, even if they are not as pure as driven snow.
  8. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Let me clarify further - does this position assume that the West Bank and Gaza are (or should be) Israel?

    It seems no, but the little "they're all people from Syria/Lebanon/Egypt/Jordan anyhow" aside makes me pause for a minute to consider whether you're actually proposing "move" as the alternative to the West Bank being part of Israel.
  9. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    the Palestinians have proven themselves to be terrorists- Israel could wipe their asses from the face of the earth but instead try to play nice and even warn them when they are going to bomb a building-the fact that hamas/Palestinians use women and children to hide their missiles tells me all I need to know about who the bad guys are-

    it amazes me that it is the libs in America who are pro palestinian and yet the Jewish/Americans still vote dem-go figure
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  10. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    They were fairly won; and they were fairly given. Seems irrelevant to me one way or another.

    I'm saying that Palestinian was as much a national identifier as, say, "central Floridian" or "New Englander" is here, at the time Israel was established. There is something fatuous in talking about it as though it's a nation-state that was stolen out from under them now competing for its survival.

    Israel isn't actually trying to reannex Gaza or the West Bank here, you might notice. They are trying -- and we should be cheering, and probably holding their jacket -- to remove from Gaza and the West Bank the honest-to-goodness evil that is perpetuating the suffering of Israeli and Palestinian alike, the death cult Islamist terrorist group Hamas. There can be no solution to anything as long as that group has more influence than, say, the Westboro Baptists.
  11. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    So was "Israeli." And you might notice that "the time Israel was established" also pretty clearly called for the establishment of an Arab partition.

    So making the backhanded remarks about "Lebanese/Syrian/Egyptian" isn't much different than describing Israelis as "Poles/Ukranians/Russians," which would (rightly) draw the legitimate complaint that you're denying Israel's right to exist. And the UN plan never explicitly called for a State of Israel to be established immediately either, Israel decided to declare independence in the Jewish partition concurrently with the British withdrawal from the Mandate. So the sole complaint that Palestine isn't a national identifier is that Palestine didn't immediately do the same thing?

    So when the position starts with implicitly denying the right of a Palestinian state to exist (and, by doing so, directly denying the right to self-determination in the Palestinian territories) is it any wonder that it isn't terribly conducive to getting the other side to stop fighting with you?

    And, to the last point, as the Haaretz article I posted before we went down this tangent said, a big step toward getting people to stop backing militant groups and sap them of their power would be to stop rewarding the Palestinian leadership that has moved away from militancy (Fatah) with nothing but more settlements in the West Bank once they stop fighting you and help police the territories.
  12. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    You live in Gaza and you don't back Hamas, you are a dead man. Hamas has no problems murdering Palestinians. Just ask Fatah. In 2005, Israel unilaterally gave back all the land it occupied in Gaza. Jewish settlers were removed kicking and screaming. Businesses and homes were left for the Palestinians with the understanding of future economic development with Israel. The Palestinians celebrated by burning the homes and businesses down to the ground. Nothing Israel does will ever be good enough. Never.
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  13. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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  14. MichiGator2002
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    A critical distinction is that Israel was sprung from the either precisely because those Poles, Russians, Germans, et al wanted political autonomy from... Poland, Russia, Germany. Nobody trading on the Palestinian brand wanted political autonomy from their actual nations of origin until and because of Israel existing. It's wedge politics as a nation-state. But even at that, even playing along with that bit of theater, it's Israel that has held out the open-hand to the corner of the world in which it was founded at every turn, and at every turn been shown unwavering hostility.
  15. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    No offense y'all, but "see Hamas is bad" is pretty much assumed as a given in the discussion going on.

    No one is arguing that they aren't, so just going "see, bad" without more doesn't add a ton.

    The question isn't "is Hamas bad," it's "what do you do to neuter Hamas who is clearly bad?"

    And that was the point of the article I posted stating that Israel's greatest weapon against Hamas is hope for the Palestinians.

    If your only solution is "bomb and invade Gaza again," you just put yourself in the cycle of having to do so every couple of years. If the only solution is "reoccupy Gaza," you put yourself in the position of having to fight Hamas constantly. It's the whole "if your only answer is a hammer, every question looks like a nail" point, combined with the fact that doing what made people mad in the first place isn't a real good way to calm them down.

    What the article pointed out was that if you're occupying Gaza, or if you're bombing Gaza, you'll never put a stop to the Hamas issue because there will always be plenty of people whose family was killed by Israel ready to step up and die trying to fight you.

    What Hamas feeds on is desperation. When Gaza isn't allowed to engage in trade, either with anyone else or with the West Bank, and when all the arable lands have been put into exclusion zones, the only options for Gazans become live in a refugee camp and survive on foreign aid or join Hamas.

    So how do you defeat Hamas? Providing hope and options for the Palestinian people. It's possible to ensure security without preventing anyone in Gaza from ever having any contact with the outside world or making a living. Do so.

    And the biggest weapon against Hamas? Showing that non-militancy by Palestinians actually gets you something. Don't make the only reward for Fatah putting down their guns in the West Bank be Israel walking all over them. Stop rewarding efforts at peaceful coexistence with more settlements. And let the unity government form, and do everything in your power short of rigging elections to make sure Fatah wins them (according to polling right now the Fatah candidate would win, and there's another Fatah candidate who would win in a landslide but Israel currently has him in jail).
  16. g8orbill
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    I would wipe their asses from the face of the Earth by whatever means necessary
  17. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    None of their "actual nations of origin" really existed either until a few years before (and it's not like they all suddenly moved there from Syria/Egypt/Lebanon - they had been in "Palestine" for the entirety of Ottoman rule and a long while before that). That was all the Ottoman Empire for hundreds and hundreds of years, then they became the English Mandates, then England started carving them into countries.
  18. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    And you would just create even more to replace them.

    Unless your proposed answer is ethnic cleansing, "I'll kill a bunch of Palestinians" isn't going to do anything to solve the problem of people who want to fight you largely because you killed a bunch of Palestinians.

    As two paragraphs later in that post said:

    "If your only solution is 'bomb and invade Gaza again,' you just put yourself in the cycle of having to do so every couple of years. If the only solution is 'reoccupy Gaza,' you put yourself in the position of having to fight Hamas constantly. It's the whole 'if your only answer is a hammer, every question looks like a nail' point, combined with the fact that doing what made people mad in the first place isn't a real good way to calm them down.

    What the article pointed out was that if you're occupying Gaza, or if you're bombing Gaza, you'll never put a stop to the Hamas issue because there will always be plenty of people whose family was killed by Israel ready to step up and die trying to fight you."
  19. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    it is all the palestinians seem to understand
  20. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    By which you mean it's all that's ever really been tried and hasn't worked at all? Gotcha.

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