HRW: Iraqi security forces illegally detaining, torturing, raping women

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by co_gator89, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. tegator80
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    tegator80 Well-Known Member

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    Not to be too simplistic, but my take is that once the Soviet Union fell we were the undisputed "leader of the world." And with that designation we decided that we had the wherewithal to social engineer. What I fail to understand is, if our own infrastructure is crumbling and our populace has better things to do than be civic minded, why do we think we have it all figured out?

    And as I posted before, the best thing we could - and still can - do is determine who/where the perpetrators are, get the state where they are to act responsibly or if they refuse (see Afghanistan) you simple turn them into the Stone Ages. Now you won't necessarily get closure in that area but you have sent the unmistakable message to the rest of the world that you fail in your jurisprudence at your own risk. And I am sure that quite a few "precocious" states will suddenly get religion.
  2. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    I agree with all of this. Would only add that I think Afghanistan might have gone a lot better if we'd kept our eye on the ball (and not let it drift toward Iraq and some PNAC fantasy that it would become a defacto West Germany in the ME).
  3. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    So because the problem is "too big," we shouldn't attempt to do something about it?

    I don't shed a tear when either roach is exterminated. Fortunately, humans are slightly more intelligent than insects. With each leader that gets killed, recruitment gets that much harder for AQ and other extremist organizations. They keep a low-profile to not draw attention and that suits our goals just fine.
  4. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure the rationales for war have been well-covered. This thread isn't really about why we did it.

    But I'd caution anyone in ascribing some super-Machiavellian grand plan to bin Laden, saying it was his "goal all along" to bait the US into a larger conflict and/or to wreck our economy. Read his writings before 9-11 and before Iraq. He didn't exactly mince words on what his goals were (a pan-Islamic superpower caliphate to spawn up in the region and dominate the world)--and nowhere in there were some of the things I routinely see people attributing to him. Bin Laden was like Lane Kiffin: winds up trying to make everything seem as "part of a plan"--but in reality, was making everything up on the fly.

    Well, on this we agree. It was foolishness and abject stupidity on our part to conflate the two. The conditions were nowhere near similar and the Bush Administration was certainly guilty of hubris in their post-war strategy.
  5. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    We should have never invaded Iraq when we did. While the majority on this board were for the invasion, there were a few of us, myself included, that knew an invasion of Iraq was doomed from the start. A country doesn't change its geo-political stripes overnight, and "Iraq" has been a region of tribal strife for generations, with the only peace time occurring when ruled by a strong-armed despot, or strong-arm foreign country. Toppling Saddam meant toppling a strong-arm despot, meaning we'd be left as the foreign country to keep the peace. And once we left, the peace in Iraq would go with us, leaving us in the poor position of either staying there indefinitely, or pulling the plug on the grenade when we left. Given those were the two most likely outcomes, best not to go in the first place.

    And there is nothing we can do in the region in terms of nation building until people agree that everyone deserves equal rights. And not my tribe first, all else under my control or dead. What a complete waste of lives and resources invading Iraq.

    We should have stayed in Afghanistan only and squash any cockroaches that appeared swiftly cleanly. Could have pressured Saddam and others in the area that if they want to act like a cockroach too, they'd meet the same fate. But no, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and a convinced Bush II believed we could turn Iraq into a western-style democracy and start the dominoes falling toward peace. A nice pipe dream, and complete fools' gold that again, cost people their lives, and this country billions, if not trillions of taxpayer dollars.
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  6. flavius
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    flavius New Member

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    Right. And we should spend $2 trillion and the lives of appx 5,000 US servicemen to allow them to do so too. Right ?

    (Oooooops !! The supporters of that insanity want to....pretend it never happened. So they can hypocritically finger-point and whine in the absence of the glaring reality that......the results of their judgement are worse than anything they now moan about.)
  7. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    I am seriously baffled that this was your take-away from my post. Baffled.
  8. tideh8rGator
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    tideh8rGator Well-Known Member

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    Won the war with Bush

    Lost the peace with obsama

    Tell the truth here.
  9. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Who said open elections automatically gets you "democracy"? That is just not true.
  10. gatornana
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    gatornana Administrator

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    The Bush administration.
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  11. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Lol... If he did then that's just one more thing he was wrong about.
  12. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, we beat a country that couldn't mount any defense whatsoever. Everyone knew that would be the easy part. It was the rest of it that was a hopeless trap. We should have known that. What did we get for all the deaths. For all the trillions.
    squat.
  13. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    And had I Obama invaded and then been followed by Bush, we'd be saying Obama won the war and Bush lost the peace. In short, winning the war was easy given the military discrepancy. And winning the peace was impossible, given Iraq's penchant for sectarian violence. It's why we never should have invaded Iraq when we did.
  14. HallGator
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    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

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    You would have to know who it was you were responding to in order to gain an understanding.
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  15. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    Let's also not forget the mountains of international political capital that were literally flushed down the toilet with the decision to unilaterally invade.

    Iran supported our invasion of Afghanistan. I'd argue that our decision to invade Iraq has actually empowered Iran.
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  16. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    I was alluding to the pointless nature of it, not the difficulty. You can try to solve your roach problem with your right foot. Hell, you can use your left too. But nothing short of tenting the house is going to solve it. And if it's too ingrained, burning it down and starting over may be the only solution.

    I think "quixotic" is the word for it. Sorta like everything the PNAC nutjobs believe.
  17. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    If Islamic terrorism is being compared to a roach infestation, then one has to take into account that the human equivalent of "tenting the house and exterminating all the roaches" is probably unfeasible. No modern-day nation-state can realistically exterminate an entire group of people (which is a good thing--I'm glad humanity has progressed to the point where this is no longer considered acceptable).

    But Islamic terrorism is a real problem and the threat they pose to America and American interests is also real. You may view drone strikes and our intelligence network designed to identify and target extremists as using your right foot to stop a problem...but the reality is: AQ has been decimated by such a strategy and Islamic terrorism has been on the downswing in the last decade--at least terrorism directed at Western targets.

    I'm fine with discussing alternative options since our strategy has been refined and adapted over the years too. Could we do with a smaller presence and footprint? Perhaps.
  18. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    (Bolded) Kinda my point, don't ya think.

    I don't have a problem with the rest and you may be right. But I'm of the belief that people and cultures change when the people want, demand and fight for something better. I don't see that in the ME, thus my belief that it is a pointless pursuit. My solution, however unrealistic: Moon mission to energy independence (everything under the sun) and give the entire region our backs. Let them rot in the cesspool they've created or let someone else be the babysitter.
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  19. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    If we are to continue to use the cockroach analogy, I say as long as they stay in the sewers, fine. But as soon as one steps out into the open and causes problems, we squash 'em. And that can be done by keeping a battle ready air craft carrier in the area and drones. Ground troops should only ever be used and/or needed if there is ever another 9/11 type incident requiring a larger response.

    But with Iraq, we are the ones who went into the sewers and chased the roaches. It was the absolute wrong strategy, especially given the Iraqi's region history of sectarian violence. It wasn't difficult to know that once the strong arm of Saddam was removed, the area would devolve into sectarian violence unless we replaced Saddam's strong arm with our own military might. But to what end? We can only stay and keep the peace in a country for so long before the cost of time, troops, and money get to large for the public to swallow.

    Iraq will go down as one of America's biggest military mistakes in history. And it was completely avoidable.
  20. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    And what kills me: Only 30 years removed from a similarly quixotic pursuit in Vietnam.

    They say that history repeats itself. But, dayum! This soon?
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