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HRW: Iraqi security forces illegally detaining, torturing, raping women

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by co_gator89, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't our primary motivation, no--but certainly the US tried to make the human-rights case for intervention as a secondary casus belli behind the war. Saddam had a pretty abysmal human rights record, that much is for sure.

    I agree with you here in part (about future generations suffering here)--but I guess my point is that: it's the Middle East. Whether we went in or not, they're going to suffer. It's a sad reality, but what can we do about it? Clearly, forcing a liberal democracy on their society was an abject failure.
  2. JerseyGator01
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    JerseyGator01 Well-Known Member

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    Until now, I didn't even know the Tea Party and its war on women was a presence in Iraq.
  3. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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  4. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    Centuries. It's who they are.
  5. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    It's not the form of government that's the problem. It's the way they think. Impossible changing that.
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  6. co_gator89
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    co_gator89 Premium Member

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    I'm not bashing the system. I'm pointing out the irony of how people insisted Iraq would be better off without Saddam after they had free elections.

    Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss. Only we lost over 4,000 soldiers and wasted so much money to change absolutely nothing. That's what has me irritated.
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  7. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    Won the war, lost the peace. We are becoming real good at that. In one year or so, the exact same thing in Afghanistan. It's inevitable.
  8. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    ...in large part because of how we defined what type of peace we wanted: a functioning, liberal democracy in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Which was over-reaching, to say the least. Had we left both countries after our war-time goals were accomplished and kept skeleton forces in place to deal with left-over terrorist factions, then we would have been in a no-less worse position today, with far less money and men lost.
  9. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    You assume our wartime goals in Afghanistan have been accomplished. No more so than Vietnam. And I agree with the small force in place however the current administration said absolutely not and just like that all gains in Iraq have been wiped out in less than 3 years. That is my definition of wasted treasure.

    No small force in Afghanistan. Those people are beyond any form of western assimilation whatsoever. Just let it go.
  10. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    Well, most of us did warn of this happening when the definite date of withdrawal was made.

    The exit was, indeed, very poorly handled.
  11. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    It's not something I assume, it's a provable fact. We went into Afghanistan to take out Al Qaeda and to overthrow the Taliban. We accomplished both. Al Qaeda's leadership has been decimated: with just about everyone killed or captured. Sure, new guys pop up in their places--but in a few months, those guys are dead or imprisoned as well. Their lack of centralized leadership has meant they aren't an effective organization anymore. AQ survives as a fragmented, disparate group of like-minded individuals; but there's no coordination between the various branches. The Taliban still have powerful pull in a number of areas of Afghanistan, but they aren't in power and it's doubtful they'll ever seize the entire country as they once did. The north, central, and western regions of Afghanistan are all opposed to renewed Taliban leadership and continue to support the central government over going back to Taliban rule.

    So yes, I can say we accomplished our military, pre-war goals quite easily. What we have failed to do is the "nation-building" BS that tried to set up a Western-style democracy in a backwards area of the world. The primary reason we did this was so the UN and Europe would be on board with sending troops to Afghanistan; but I think everyone can agree that goal was overreaching, to say the least.
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  12. HallGator
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    The problem started with the invasion which I warned against.
  13. CHFG8R
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    Iraq will go down as one of the great mistakes in our country's history. Absolutely nothing positive resulted from that. Nothing.
  14. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    Agree completely. Terrible mistake from the very beginning.
  15. DaveFla
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    Hindsight is 20/20...
  16. CHFG8R
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    My words at the time: "The foreign policy equivelent of kicking over a fire-ant hill."

    rev's post and the line ". . . sure, another one pops up, but we kill them too. . . " kinda validates my contention. Or, put another way, like dealing with that roach infestation with your right foot.
  17. HallGator
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    Of course it is. Just read your own post.
  18. DaveFla
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    Yup. Turns out that we were both right.
  19. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    Some of us knew it and said it ahead of time.
  20. CHFG8R
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    So why, again, did we go in? The dad knew that it was a cesspool that would lead to nothing positive for the U.S. Honestly, when I look at the Iraq war, I think Bin Laden won. Think about it. Was that not the exact reaction he was hoping for from 9-11? He drew us into the cesspool and now we're mired in that quicksand well into the distant future.

    I saw all of this happening before we went in. Me! Friggin "me" could see the writing on the wall but Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of the PNAC psycos saw France circa 1944. That's what's really scary if you ask me. People who are supposed to know more than the rest of us about these things knew nothing. The frighting part isn't that they may have lied about intelligence, but that they actually believed it. What manner of idiot could look at any country in the ME and see the liberation of Paris or anything resembling it, anywhere in the cards?
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