Here is Jeff's problem without a doubt

Discussion in 'RayGator's Swamp Gas' started by 95Gator, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. Speedgator84
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    Speedgator84 Member

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    I believe you misunderstood me. Same issues as it relates to pocket presence...yes. Never said that the physical skills were the same. The thread was about "pocket ball", and if you observe JD, he lacks pocket awareness. To me, that is clear. That is not speaking to any of his other skills.
  2. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Right but my point was that just because JB played a good pocket game in HS doesn't mean that you can make a correlation to JD at all. I understand what you're saying but its not even A+B=C.

    To put it another way, just because JB was a good high school pocket passer, he just wasn't a good collegiate player. JD on the other hand is and its unfortunate he is currently without the necessary pocket skills. He'll get there. He is, as you said, seemingly easily shaken in a game. He's a good leader I think but he needs to be at the toughest times.
  3. Speedgator84
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    Now you are contradicting yourself...Here is your original point:

    "He has no sixth sense as to what is happening in the pocket and THAT is what cost us the game today. It's not his fault. Watch his highlight reel from high school. He had zero line and runs out of the pocket without a thought. How this didn't downgrade him in the scouting rankings escaped me then and absolutely does now. The only thing he is aware of is running for his life. Running up the middle and the side but staying put is no good, no feel. It's a shame because he will be a great because he is a great passer and runner but must get that pocket.

    You tell me how the guy below was supposed to develop a pocket presence by his sophomore or junior year of college."

    Well, just because JD wasn't a pocket passer in HS doesn't mean that you can correlate it to his ability to play it in college either. You are actually agreeing with what I said, because above you correlate JD's game in HS to his game in college, and as you just stated above, its not A+B=C

    My easy to follow statement is that they both have/had pocket awareness issues irregardless to what went on in High School. My point was JB learned pocket passing in HS and it was rendered irrelevant as a college QB.

    The bottom line is that both have issues with pocket passing and you yourself said they are without the necessary skills which again supports my premise that it is simply pedagogical (methods of skill acqusition).
  4. SECund2nun
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    SECund2nun Well-Known Member

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    Sadly we don't have any alternatives since Brissett is gone. We can just hope Driskel improves his pocket awareness and his ability to read defenses. And next year obviously senior Driskel is preferable over true freshman Grier...so we are stuck with him the next 2 years. Let's hope he improves.
  5. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    I had to work through the night last night and didn't get a wink of sleep yet so these are just almost non-sensical diversions and to that end, I am not making myself as clear as I normally would. My vernacular has shrunk in half (although you did say irregardless ;) )

    Were sort of on a tangent about nothing but I completely understand what you're saying, I think my post as to JBs skills was confusing. I am definitely not contradicting myself or agreeing with what you said about that point. Let me try to be more clear.

    You were making a point (and correct me if I'm wrong) that JB who was a good pocket passer in HS that didn't translate to the college game is somehow correctable to the fact that JD who had no pocket game in HS shouldn't affect his abilities in college simply because JB didn't translate his good HS skills from the pocket? (It's not a simple thought because it's non-sensical to me frankly)

    Wow, my explanation wasn't not clearer I don't think.

    Scientifically one is a positive and one is a negative. JB had the skills, it didn't copy. JD never had the opportunity and now must to improve his already large skill set. It's imperative for him to have that second nature pocket presence. But I don't understand how JBs inability to jump it up has anything to do with JDs lack of it completely. Your point would only make sense to me if JD had a normal 3 or 5 step drop and pass in HS and he couldn't bring it up to college (like JB).

    Simpler - Just because JB could not translate his HS success as a pocket passer to college is not even minutely correctable to JD not having a pocket game in HS and therefore not having one in college. One is a failure, the latter is a circumstance.
  6. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    I understand the desire to want Brrisett over Driskel at the moment but the upside to Driskel over Brrisett is huge. Brrisett is a pure pocket passer and not really a threat running.

    I think in the right circumstances Driskel is a better passer and runner unfortunately those circumstances were lacking in a couple key moments yesterday. Mark my words, Brissett will be a footnote and Driskel will be a NFL player. That means nothing to us if we can't get him to be a great pocket passer until the second half of his senior year but hopefully we will.
  7. Jonas
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    Jonas Well-Known Member

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    The problem with Driskel is that he is all potential right now (wrt drop back passing ability). It's impossible to know if he will eventually develop the mental aspects of the game (pocket presence, reading defense, throwing with anticipation). He'll get better there for sure, but to an elite level? Tebow never developed there, and he is a tireless worker.
  8. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but Tebow had to learn to change a well established throwing motion. So hard to do. Driskel needs to just get the timing down for a 3 or 5 step drop and then what he should do when he hopefully starts to feel pressure. These things should be second nature. Roll right, left, forward etc. Once it is second nature he can focus more on those other things like where his wides are etc. He's an awesome athlete and I think he will it's a matter of when. Doesn't matter, the coaching staff should know he is not yet a pure passer and keep him out of normal drops during red zone and other pressure scenarios where he will fold. Going in to Tennessee we should show throw quick slants and designed JD runs because they are gonna CRUSH the box and blitz the hell out of us. Driskel was great yesterday, although he could be argued to be the reason we lost, he is also the reason we would have won. The coaches need to figure out how to call the plays while developing his pocket timing or else we will lose a lot. That was a mediocre Um team and we should have killed them.
  9. NorthCaptivaGator
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    NorthCaptivaGator Well-Known Member

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    He has wide-open receivers but throws it to the wrong guy. Nobody can coach that. He just doesn't get it
  10. johnl
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    johnl Premium Member

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    So the bright side of Driskel is that he has potential after college. Much like the drawback for Tebow haters is that he was awesome in college, only that has been proven.

    Notre Dame only cares that Jimmy Clausen was exceptionally bad in college, but yeah, scouts liked him.
  11. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    When all you are thinking about is where you are in the pocket as opposed to FEELING it, you have to coach around that. Not being comfortable in the pocket makes you not throw to wide open receivers.

    This is so obvious I can't believe nobody gets it. It's coaching. You coach around your player, not vice versa. Jeff Driskel has only been doing a 3 step drop for 2 years of his life.
  12. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's what I said before. Driskel has a huge upside if (and i believe he can) as an all round player if he gets natural pocket timing. I'm pretty good at evaluating athletic talent and he's full of it. Have no doubt that he will be a good drop back passer but as I said before, I hope it's not in the second half of his senior year.

    Thats said, Pease and Chomp should not PUT HIM IN A drop step in the red zone...EVER right now. The added pressure leads to a 1 for 6 red zone offense when he was doing great the rest of the game. I put that on the coaches. You must know your players.
  13. Jonas
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    Jonas Well-Known Member

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    Well the problem is that every position can do what Pease wants to do except Driskel. We can definitely run more zone-read plays, but we can't completely overhaul the system for Driskel.

    We should have gotten more qualified QBs if Muschamp was going to be so committed to completely changing the system.
  14. Speedgator84
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    You are wrong on the point I am making...I am not connecting the two at all as far as success. Your original point was because JD was NOT a pocket passer in HS, that he was having trouble transitioning to one now.

    I said that it didn't matter beacause there have been HS quarterbacks who HAVE experienced pocet success in HS (used JB as an example because he just happened to be from the same program/system) who still had trouble in college with pocket success.

    So, I am saying that a you cant draw any conclusions from high school (whether someone was a pocket passer or not) when it comes to a skill such as success as a pocket passer in college. Certain other skills are better indicators college success. However, passing (in the pocket) is not one of those as the college defenses and schemes, not to mention the athletes, are night and day.

    I am not connecting their outcomes which you seem to try and do. I stated in a previous thread that JD is a physically gifted athlete. I am simply talking about pocket awareness, which is a component of the passing game. It doesn't matter about the other components (footwork, arm strength, etc.) if you are constanly getting sacked or fumbling the ball in the pocket. Pocket presence is a skill that hinges on processing in TIME that will only get better with the proper acquisition and development..period.

    You see in training elite athletes, skill is learned by progression from the system that you are in...irregardless to what you have been introduced to before. Adaptation is a variable that all training/coaching must consider as well as the athlete focusing on the system's goals. That appears to be the issue here in JD's development as a pocket passer.

    JD's situation is not a circumstance. He's a gifted athlete capable of mastering the skill and has been working on it at UF now for two years...which leads me back to my original premise, this is a skill acquisition and motor development-time issue...nothing else
  15. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Well he obviously isn't. Ha. That's the problem isn't it.

    Driskel was 22/33 with almost 300 yards.

    Morris completed 12 passes for 162 (half on like one drive).

    If I told you that and added to it that we had 38:20 of the time, you would not believe we lost. We could have absorbed 3 and maybe even 4 turnovers which is amazing but not 5 against their one. But I truly feel we could have coached out of 2 at least of those. The fumble on the sack and the interception from pressure (not the Burton wrong route).

    Yes, a couple of the turnovers were not the fault of anyone. It was just football. But the complete breakdown of JD in the pocket is because he is being coached to remain in the pocket against his intuition and that pressure is too much right now in pressure situations like the red zone, heavy blitz, or the end of the game and needing to get a 80 yards in 30 seconds.

    Wouldn't have taken an overhaul, just let him roll out when were in the red zone if were passing. Simple as that.
  16. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    With that description I agree with almost everything you wrote but not that it's not a circumstance. His lack of presence in the pocket is a direct circumstance of his not having had the time in his career to get to where a pure pocket passer would be. A circumstance by definition is a fact that is connected to an event. So the fact that he isn't a pure pocket passer yet is simply connected to the fact that he was not that in High School and must learn it, as you said with time. Mentioning that he is a great athlete is just the reason I give for why I think he will learn it. He already has to an extent but it takes more than 15-20 games to get the speed down to feel the pocket. There is no way that he should be expected to be a pure pocket passer at this stage of learning it. It's ludicrous and to not coach around it would be unforgivable at this point. He will continue to ascend in the pocket in the normal course of events but as you know, the pocket is a game of milliseconds, not seconds and when he has to worry about it and not feeling it, it's too much. He's doing great. His stats show he's a good passer in the pocket but he just needs a little more time to be able to drop back in the red zone and do 2-3 reads and feel comfortable.

    I completely understand and even agree with that you cannot asses someones ability to translate their skill from HS to college in any regard, I'm just not seeing the application here. Either way, I love everything you've been posting. It's great insight.

    His need to learn to be a pocket passer is absolutely circumstantial to him rolling out on every play in HS. That's almost not even subjective.
  17. Speedgator84
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    We wll just have to agree to disagree. One could argue that his daily work with a professional staff for two years is enough to negate any previous habits as it relates to any previous event.

    I have had elite athletes acquire dramatic improvements in complex processing and motor ability in months vs. some that take a year or more. ...and I'm talking about NFL-caliber athletes. The amount of time that it takes an athlete (I call it latency period) to grasp skill is based on the adaptation to the system; which yes, is up to the trainer/coach to implement.

    However, at some point, the coach AND athlete is to be accountible for the skill acquirement. As the years of experience/training continue to mount, the "circumstances" card in competitive athletics does not suffice. That results in underperforming athletes, and fired coaches.

    What is the proper amount of time as it relates to that particular skill? You or I do not know that which makes it very subjective. I will agree to disagree, lets move on.
  18. Hill_Raiser
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    Jeff, you'd be a better QB and we'd have a better team if you spent more time watching film, and less time posting on Gator Country.
  19. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of the proper time, not knowing if your player is prepared to render the plays you're calling in the given scenario is what makes a good coach. The responsibility of that is on the coaches. The responsibility of the player is to be the best he can be. JDs performance was enough to get them the win. It is very obvious that someone should have known that he is not ready for pressure situations in a game time setting in a drop step pass. I know this because I saw it.

    Shoot, even if they just leaned it in the game at some point they should have stopped calling drop steps in the red zone. That adjustment would have won the game for us.
  20. Speedgator84
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    Now, thats pretty funny....

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