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Health care lessons from Sweden

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by Row6, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    This does not play well for the redistributive crowd as they will argue people are incapable of this and will die in the streets.

    If only government would help those in true need while requiring something small in return (at least in many cases especially where bad decisions were made) we might start turning this thing around.
  2. 108
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    Thread is full of excuses for US mediocrity

    Conservatives reactively oppose anything that is more socialized, even if it works better

    And instead of finding solutions that work within our the limits we've imposed due to ideology, the parties are gridlocked based on who sponsors them
  3. gator7_5
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    gator7_5 Well-Known Member

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    Oh goody! Another comparison between the melting pot US and a nordic country in regards to healthcare. Wonder how many single welfare moms with a dozen kids there are in Norway. Bet they feast on KFC and big macs all day too.
  4. gator7_5
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    No probably about it. You would be laughed out of the doctors office if you visted for the Flu. Here, the common cold probably takes up half of the ER.
  5. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    Have you built any affordable hospitals recently? All righty then . . . :)
  6. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    Tort reform is a serious issue with our health care system. You can't sue a hospital for $40 million and not have it affect the hospital's finances. And then there's the issue of defensive medicine that has become more common--doctors do not want to be sued, and don't like paying malpractice insurance.

    I don't know why it hasn't shown up on any studies, but it's there. Maybe the insurance industry doesn't want to fund the studies. The lawyers sure as hell don't want to fund that study.
  7. QGator2414
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    Really? The country where the vast majority of medical advances have occurred?

    Okay...
  8. 108
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    im talking about our worst outcomes

    and innovation is limited if its priority is just using it to rape the consumer's wallet
  9. QGator2414
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    Okay...
  10. neisgator
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    neisgator Belligerent Gator

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    Well, then, stop talking.

    Because it is embarrassing.
  11. mastoidbone
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    There are many many benefits from govt run health care----
    almost none of them are in the ACA.

    One of the worst pieces of legislation in our history.

    No true cost cutting measures
    no economy of scale
    unproved assumptions
    etc
    etc

    I have worked and volunteered in nations with this system---overall the outcomes are as good or better then here--no doubt.

    BUT--there is FAR FAR less patient autonomy and choice---not even close. Dont expect to pick your doctor or question him/her about qualifications. Dont expect choices----for example---over 90% of US women want labor epidural----over 90% of women in many european nations DONT get them offered are are informed about them---this saves money---ask the women in your life how they like that.

    Outcome of birth is likely same----but which patient had more choice and comfort???things like this NOT reflected in studies like NYT.

    Also, in many US patients most patients get a private room and partner or family can stay with the patient on a couch.....this IS NOT an option in almost all or europe. EVER.
    In most countries it is 6 to a room and no family can stay. Which do you want?
    Yes USA is FAR more expensive----and outcomes are not better measured in many ways,

    But if you value autonomy and choice and comfort---US is FAR FAR better then any other nation on earth. We pay for that. TOO much for sure---but to say we have nothing to show for that is wrong.

    Ask your wife if she want to pay 40% less for insurance but will not get epidural for child birth and get back to me.

    Epidural rates are 250% higher in US then UK---think women in UK are given the choices and options US women are???
    NO
    Italy epidural rate 5%
    Hungary 14%

    And it is not the WOMEN who make these rates so low---it is NATIONAL health budgets---and maybe that is as it should be----but dont tell me that we get little for our overspending---we get much in autonomy and choice---what that is worth???i dont know---but it is not nothing.
  12. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    Oh, that bogeyman that you can't see. What I find interesting is the demonizing of the legal profession until a person needs its assistance.

    Sure, let's have tort reform and listen to the bitching when the injury table says your 5 year old only gets $200,000 for a lifetime with one foot, $275,000 with one leg, or $300,000 with one arm...

    Or how about the person that beats a manslaughter charge (or pleads to community service and probation) after taking your child's life in a car accident. Are you going to be happy with a mandated cap when hitting the person's bank account is the only way to affect them?

    And no, I'm not a plaintiff attorney.
  13. demosthenes
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    Good points (assuming your stats are correct). Not picking on you, I just see a lot of stats bandied about that later prove untrue.

    I don't think many people would want fewer choices/options. I know my wife doesn't going into her 38th week pregnant. She absolutely wants her own room but intends to try without an epidural with the understanding she will likely resort to one at some point.
  14. g8trdoc
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    You have to a moron to compare a country with basically one ethnic group and the population the size of the state of Georgia to our system. It's not even worth reading.
  15. LittleBlueLW
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    Your first scenario: those are considerable sums of money. Enough for a car, college, etc. since you cant put a price on a life, much less a body part, Id say thats what the system is and rather than allowing lawyers on both sides to profit by arguing over what is 'fair' or not, I'd take it and get on with life.

    Your second scenario has nothing to do with the cost of healthcare.
  16. QGator2414
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    Some form of "loser pays" needs to be implemented. I see the pros and cons but see something along the "loser pays" as the best way to slow the trial attorneys and the seeking of ridiculous amounts of money (yes some instances are deserving of ridiculous amounts of money and it would be nice if the attorney let the victim take more home...but Morgan and Morgan needs to have Obama parties).
  17. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    It is naive to think lawyers won't still be involved and make money. Look at workers comp where I pulled the above values based on a 50k income. Lawyers are all over workers comp due to disputes of merit. The only thing it has done is make one size shoe fit all. In my opinion that's hardly a fair outcome since every situation is different. As an employer (construction industry) I love it because my insurance costs are generally fixed. Also, paying out on my insurance is hardly much of a deterrent (other than trying to keep my rates low). My company's interest doesn't make it right. Besides, people often miss the deterrent aspect of these claims.

    As to the second, tort reform doesn't happen in a vacuum unless they decide to carve out a niche for med mal which isn't seriously being considered.
  18. LittleBlueLW
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    So in which of these scenarios do the lawyers make more?

    Scenario 1: my kid lost a foot due to your screw up. We get 200k. Ok.

    Scenario 2: my kid lost a foot due to your screw up. Your insurance offers 200k. I hire an attorney that says no way, we can get a lot more. Suit filed. Both sides litigate. Settle out of court for double and my lawyer keeps 35-40% and the carrier spends x dollars churning the file.
  19. demosthenes
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    Absolutely we should adopt "loser pays." It won't stop the seeking of "ridiculous amounts of money" though because a plaintiff can seek $25 million and get a judgment for $1 and the other side will pay all their attorney costs. It will make attorneys more discriminating on what cases they bring which will lower the number of "frivolous" lawsuits (not eliminate as attorneys will just charge their clients for borderline cases instead of on a contingent basis) and costs due to less defense costs. However, I think people lobbying for tort reform will be shocked to see little to no impact in the cost of healthcare/insurance if it comes about.
  20. mastoidbone
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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18953285

    Since January 2005 the Regional Government of Lombardia, a large Italian region with over 1/5 of all Italian births, allocated public funds for 3 consecutive years to help provide epidural analgesia (EA) for women in labor. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the trend of diffusion of EA in the triennium 2005-2007.

    METHODS:
    Data obtained from regional Obstetric Departments, recognized by the National Health Care System, were elaborated by the Epidemiological Service of Regione Lombardia. The software looked for specific codes for vaginal deliveries, with or without EA, and Cesarean sections included in the administrative patient records.

    RESULTS:
    A substantial increase in epidurals administered in comparison to total vaginal deliveries was recorded after assignment of regional financing: from 8.2% in 2005, to 10.4% in 2006 and 12.9% in 2007 (P<0.0001). More than 60% of epidurals were performed in 8 hospitals with >2 000 births per year. The rate of EAs in these hospitals was 18% in 2005, 22% in 2006 and 24.9% in 2007. In the 69 hospitals with <2000 births per year, the rate of EAs was markedly lower: 4% in 2005, 5.5% in 2006 and 7.8% in 2007. In both cases, the increase was statistically significant (P<0.0001). At the three-year time-point, the rate of Cesarean sections did not change.

    CONCLUSIONS:
    The continuous increase of EA for labor after regional financings suggests that the low rate of pain relief procedures in Lombardia was mainly due to economic and organizational issues, rather than to cultural and psychological factors.


    AGAIN---in these systems you are NO LONGER the driver----you will be a silent passenger. For BETTER and for WORSE.

    If you want to spend less---NATIONALIZE health industry. But do NOT tell me that all that happens is less spending---there is a cost.

    I witness that cost every time I volunteer as a visiting instructor in Italy---good doctors, good facilities for the doctors, good outcomes, MUCH cheaper------ALL TRUE-----also---FAR less choice for patients, far less empowered patients, and far WORSE facilities for patients.

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