GTL The next step to energy independence

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by G8trGr8t, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    http://seekingalpha.com/article/172...-gas-prices?source=email_authors_alerts&ifp=0

    What is amazing to me is that the US energy revolution that has occurred over the past 5 years is the biggest organically developed economic boom this country has seen in decades. It is probably the only thing that has kept us out of a depression and in spite of this wealth of private enterprise stimulus to our economy we are barely scraping by with 2% growth.

    Can you imagine where would be without the hundreds of billions of spending (and savings) that the industry has gift wrapped and handed to this administration in spite of their attempt to demonize the oil industry.
  2. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure Obama and the EPA are looking into ways to tax the crap out of NG just to steal more tax dollars out of this industry too. But is seems like Bobby Jindal is a shrewd business man... He's the antithesis of our flunky-in-thief, Obama.
  3. rpmGator
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    rpmGator Well-Known Member

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    Walmart now gets twenty percent of its electric
    from solar with more to come.
    Wind was the leader in added electric last year for the first
    time.

    We have as much wind power in this nation as
    Australia makes in total from all types of energy according to
    the Wall Street Jounal.
  4. docspor
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    docspor Active Member

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    Energy independence, if it is a natural consequence of a free mkt is fine. Otherwise, not. I hope we don't try to go olive, coffee, car, scotch, wine, pepper, lamb, computer, etc. independent.

    btw, I am a big fan of NG.

    NOTHING CREATES WEALTH LIKE EXCHANGE. YES EXCHANGE CREATES WEALTH...IT DOESN'T JUST MOVE IT AROUND
  5. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting. I hope they find a way to keep the Eagles from getting spliced in half by the wind turbine blades. Too many Eagles are getting killed by those wind generating turbine blades.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...den-eagles-dying-colliding-wind-turbines.html
  6. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    Certain things are of national interest and we can't wait for the "free market" to bring about their existence, which may or may not ever occur.
  7. docspor
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    docspor Active Member

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    A. I would like to see a convincing arg as to why energy independence is of such importance. If it is economically inefficient to do so, that raises the bar on the ind. arg. The fact that having diverse sources of energy worldwide could have its benefits also raises that bar. The fact that having reserves of a valuable resource (that tends to rise in value) versus burning through those reserves further raises the bar. If you had an investment that earned 10% a year, would you sell it or hold it?

    B. if it is of such great importance that is a good argument for a pigovian tax that raises taxes on gas

    Any chance you'll hit the basin if we get some good early season freshies? we can discuss this over a pali pilsner.
  8. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    is eliminating oil imports of national interest?

    what is the quickest and most efficient way to eliminate oil imports? Convert big rigs and fleet vehicles to natural gas yet the gubmnt has done little to nothing to facilitate this while spending billions on other forms of alternative energy that is not cost competitive with nat gas.

    nat gas development also keeps the money here and generates wealth for the mineral rights holders here (lot of millionaires being created from their royalties) instead of sending it to others (China) who build the great majority of the wind and solar.

    wrt wind and solar, what is the useful life of those facilities? not the projected useful life but the realistic useful life based on the last 10 years of deployment? For every bit of wind/solar you have to have the backup facilities in place to provide the power when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing so the capital costs to build and maintain those facilities are another form of subsidy for those forms of energy production. SO we subsidize foreign manufacturers to produce items with limited lifespans that produce electricity at a higher cost per kw hour than nat gas and then have to build and maintain back up power generation and distribution facilities to make up for the inconsistency in the supply. We are also spending hundreds of millions to try and create a grid that can handle the instability inherent in the on again off again nature of the alternative power supply from wind and solar.
  9. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    Oil, used not only for transportation but also for heating and in some cases electricity generation, is sold in a global market. While a net importer, no matter how much supply we have the prices will always reflect the global demand and turmoil. As it is we are consistently affected by middle East turmoil, supply impacts due to Atlantic storms, and substantially increasing demand from the developing world. Our oil supply can also be drastically reduced at the whim of countries that have proven historically adverse to the USAs interests.

    We will be in a better place to compete in the global market if we have reliable domestic energy sources largely unaffected by global turmoil.

    You may be right and I think Obama would go that route if a Pigouvian tax wouldn't be a major political liability. They've chosen to attack it in a twofold manner, regulation and incentives. For instance , there have been regulations to reduce the environmental negative externalities via emission reductions. They have also attacked it from the other side by offering incentives to use alternate means. A Pigouvian tax will most likely be implemented further down the road when economic incentives are no longer necessary to promote the alternative means.


    Not likely. I haven't been to the Basin in years and from my time as a ski bum in Breckenridge I always preferred other resorts with more snow. Springtime at the Basin can be quite fun though. On second thought, if I'm out there around Christmas time, maybe we can hit it up. :)

    The biggest obstacle though is that I'm in Portland now. I keep trying to get my wife to move somewhere sunnier with better skiing but she says she'll only go if I find a job that will pay all our bills (she isn't licensed in Colorado like me). Attorney positions are hard enough to find without trying to find one that will replace two attorney salaries...
  10. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    not aware of anywhere in the lower 48 that still uses oil for electricity.

    no reason at all that homes heated by oil should not be converted to nat gas. that would have been an efficient use of stimulus dollars

    we have plenty of domestic energy supplies, especially when you include Canada, but this admin is consistent in their portrait of fossil fuels and coal as evil.

    this admin has effectively killed most of the coal power generation based on CO2 emissions standards created at the altar of the GW church and have refused to approve the infrastructure that would deliver more of the Canadian oil to our refineries. eliminating those sources of domestic energy is foolish and stupid, not to mention harmful to our economy.

    meanwhile this admin subsidizes intermittent power sources that squander our opportunity to gain an even bigger advantage and move ourselves closer to no imports from the ME. You may want to read what is happening in Germany due to their push to convert more to solar and how Germany now feels about the true total costs of solar power.

    the US has the opportunity to offset higher labor costs with lower power costs than the rest of the world but this admin cannot get past their carbon is bad mentality.
  11. docspor
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    Unless we socialize our oil & gas (or engage in mandated prices), being a net importer or net exporter should make no difference on how the worlds' supply & demand & shocks to supply & demand affects our prices, etc. If US producers can send it to china for more $ per barrel, they will.

    IMO, you have not provided an arg sufficient to warrant protectionism.

    Remember we are talking about the same country that put quotas on wooden clothepins cuz it was in our interest. Thank you Ronnie Reagan.
  12. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with this. I would add that I would like to see us become an exporter of fuels. Increasing global demand will drive prices further and can enrich us like it has done to countries adverse to our interests.

    Of course there are problems, that is to be expected. Also, we have domestic companies producing renewables (like First Solar, though they've had trouble recently due to global demand falling). While not green due to waste I'm also on favor of nuclear power generation.
  13. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of Germany's problems. They went about it all wrong and much quicker than we ever could. Diversification is key, IMO.

    As for the rest, I largely agree with you.
  14. rpmGator
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    rpmGator Well-Known Member

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    The new massive wind machines move so slow the bird ratio is the same for flying into one
    as a building..

    On the night thing. Peak electric use is between ten am and nine pm. Meaning solar
    helps when it is most needed

    While you guys are fighting it corporations arrindtslling it to the point electric companies are bitching
    Except perhaps FPL which is going to an all electric fleet cars and trucks as much as possible
  15. 96Gatorcise
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    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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  16. docspor
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    docspor Active Member

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    China just bought a 1/3 interest in a gas field to the East of me in N. Colo. It's a global mkt place....thank god.
  17. docspor
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    docspor Active Member

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  18. docspor
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    docspor Active Member

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    Unless we socialize our oil & gas (or engage in mandated prices), being a net importer or net exporter should make no difference on how the worlds' supply & demand & shocks to supply & demand affects our prices, etc. If US producers can send it to china for more $ per barrel, they will.
  19. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about taking our oil out of the global market, rather, eliminating our demand so that we can benefit from the market and not be subject to it's volatility.
  20. docspor
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    docspor Active Member

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    How would being energy independent mean we are not subject to volatility? Fla grows far more oranges than it consumes. 2 things explain nearly all of the volatility in OJ futures....Fla weather & prices in brazil. Unless you bar suppliers from selling in int mkts, I don't at all see how this protects us from volatility. Regardless, protection from volatility is a very weak reason to meddle in mkts, IMO.

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