Got a Cadillac health plan? Get ready to kiss it good bye!

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PSGator66, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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  2. HudsonGator
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    HudsonGator New Member

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    There is so much willful ignorance on this thread, it is exhausting.

    I'm done, continue to recite your Tea Party/Obamacare talking points amongst yourselves.
  3. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    There is so much willful ignorance on the entire subject, that Obama & Co shouldn't pass a half-assed bill just for the sake of passing it.
  4. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    Me thinks you are clueless. As I reviewed with wgb this morning that he cannot answer:

    1. Those of us who pay for our own insurance, are experiencing large premium increases due to ACA.
    2. Companies who pay for their employees insurance are experiencing large premium increases due to ACA.
    3. Employees who pay or share in cost of dependent coverage are experiencing large premium increases due to ACA.
    4. All of us in the above will have larger "out of pocket" expenses due to ACA.
    5. We can no longer fund HCAs with the amounts we could in the past due to ACA.
    6. Collectively we will all continue to fund Medicaid for the poor but at higher $ levels due to HCA.
    7. We (taxpayers) will subsidize premiums for say 90% (your figure) of those buying insurance through the exchanges due to ACA.

    It appears to me that those of us that have or buy insurance will pay even higher costs for ourselves and those without? Is that not right?

    So how is this more affordable?

    Obama said we could keep our current health care plan and docs. That was a lie. He said passing ACA would reduce "average family costs" $2500/year. That was a lie. There are now approximately 3,000 exemptions.

    Is this entire ACA one gigantic lie?

    Tell me where any of the above is incorrect.
  5. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Figured you would not answer my question...
  6. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    See my responses in red.
  7. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    Federal Government should be TINY. It's now a giant leviathan that holds dominion over all and is completely detached from the people.

    Local jurisdictions that want to provide services for a locale agreed upon by those in that small district that are directly benefiting and are directly accountable to... then you have an efficient governing model.

    What we have now is a Marxist Junta governing against the will of the people to buy votes.
  8. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    The theory is more people will get insurance....except that more people won't be able to afford the insurance in the first place when the premiums shoot up like they have/will in preparation for Obamacare.

    Yes rates were going up, but now they're going to spike. Again, at a time where the economy can ill-afford this.

    You defend this by saying it's proactively paying more into the pot - great. People can't afford this right now. Spiking the rate of increase "just because" means more taken out of people's paychecks - for those that will still be able to get insurance through their jobs.

    Your theory that premiums shouldn't rise is already being proved false because insurance companies have already said they have to raise premiums more than normal to keep up with these requirements.

    You talk about "no more people paying zero into the pot going to the ER, getting hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of treatment, and paying little to nothing. At minimum, they would at least be paying the fine." - HUH? If you have no insurance, and you have no job, and you're "indigent" (which is what this is all supposed to help -allegedly) how are you going to pay the fine? What are they going to do, start jailing people who can't pay the fine? Then someone will really start complaining that it's wrong, that it's not fair, etc. The program is going to be FULL of people who are going to be paying zero into the system.
  9. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    This is the group you want running your healthcare -

    My grandmother is in a nursing home. My mom has saved every fax, every note, every confirmation of sent items, and within the last year, she has had to resend/resubmit the exact same paperwork 17 TIMES. Why? They can't find it, or some department had it, but then that person left and now the paperwork got sent to the wrong office....it's always something. At one point they said she'd been dead since 1987. Nope, not yet.

    The government doesn't know their heads from their behinds and they're the people you want running the whole show?
  10. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    The truly indigent under Obamacare will see little difference. But that doesn't represent everyone who doesn't have health insurance. Those w/out insurance now but with the ability to afford something are truly the ones getting something for nothing. Consider the Wal-Mart greeter that doesn't have insurance, but can make ends meet for day-to-day things. Right now, this person pays 0, but if something happens, he/she will get a ride in an ambulance for a few thousand, get treatment at a ER for a few more thousand, and could have a lengthy hospital stay for even more money. All without consideration of whether or not he/she can afford it.

    Now, again, Obamacare may not be the answer, but if are all going to be able to get treatment, we must find a way for all of us who can pay to do so. Of course, the Wal-Mart greeter will still not be able to pay for treatment, but if every Wal-Mart greeter in the country were just paying the fine, then that would cover the cost.

    Again, it goes back to the issue that there is no denial of service possible when healthcare is needed. If you want to drive a car, you need to be able to afford the car, maintenance, and yes, auto insurance. But if you don't want to drive, you don't need auto insurance. And if you can afford it, you still have options, like public transportation, or a bicycle, or becoming a hermit and never leaving your home. But everyone will receive healthcare if they need it, and there really aren't any other options.
  11. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    If they could afford the insurance in the first place they would be getting it. Instead you're charging them a fine. So again, to heck with food, housing, clothing, electricity - go pay your fine. Which leaves less discretionary income for clothing, toys, cars, housing, etc. Thus bringing the economy back to a grinding halt at a time when any possible improvement that has taken place is fragile at best.

    Most people who are turning down insurance are in exactly that boat - insurance or food? Insurance or a roof over their head? So no home, no food, no transportation will mean they can't get to their job, which puts them into the "indigent" category, which means they can't pay the fine that you wanted them to pay in the first place....which shifts the burden to the next group, and so on and so on.
  12. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    So what's you answer. Again, we cannot deny medical service. So the burden to pay must fall somewhere. If we do nothing, that burden gets shifted to those of us who can afford to pay it in terms of higher premiums in a reactive way. Hospitals and other care facilities have unpaid bills, charge more to those who can afford it later. That's why insurance costs have been outpacing inflation for decades. It's also why less and less people have been insured, as the price increases price people out.

    The theory in Obamacare is to be more proactive. Pay more upfront so that at the end of the year, in theory, the hospital/care facility doesn't have unpaid bills. Will sting more in the short term, but in the long term, again in theory, prices increases should stabilize with the absence of unpaid bills.

    The other half of Obamacare is yes, to put more people on the insurance roll, thus spreading the risk around more. Is it perfect? Of course not, because yes, as you say, even the fine will price people out. But remember, we are getting nothing from people w/out insurance today, and from people filing bankruptcy alone, there are medical liabilities in the billions annually, which cause prices to go up.

    There is no perfect plan with healthcare. But our current system is problematic in that prices keep going up and there is not way to stop it. Obamacare, in theory, can address this if it works as planned. Will it? That's another debate. But it's sure better than doing nothing.
  13. Matthanuf06
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    Matthanuf06 New Member

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    If that is the case it would have been far simpler to just raise taxes across all income brackets.
  14. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    1. Considering all the delays and misinformation/misunderstanding out there, I doubt anyone can really say how this will work, let alone if it will work.

    2. You're right, time will tell. However, if the end result is more Americans out of work, more Americans unable to make ends meet, and more Americans priced out of the very system that's supposed to help them, then no, it sure isn't better than doing nothing.
  15. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    But, but, but...Obamacare was supposed to save money. Horse$hit. The increases we've had the last two years have been higher than any increases since 1998 when I started my business. And I sign zee papers and checks so I knows of which I speaks. Our agent says it is all about Obamacare and everyone in the industry knows it. With the recession, costs should have gone down. Not as much elective surgery. If someone loses job, they sometimes will go Cobra but often will do without hoping to get another job with insurance. Only people getting knees, hips, shoulders replaced are the medicare folks or those with low deductables on their private insurance. Even Stryker Orthopoedics had to lay off reps in 2008-2010. Not as much demand.
  16. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    You made a similar comment a few posts up and it is just disingenuous.

    There are lots of people without insurance that negociate with hospitals and doctors for services rendered and pay their bill.

    People go bankrupt from medical bills that have insurance as well....
  17. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    The 10 years before Obama was elected, the average annual rise in health premiums was 13% according to this chart.

    [​IMG]

    This past year, the increase according to US News was 6.1% for employers, and between 8 and 9% for employees. A total of 15.1% max, which really isn't that far off from the 13% average from the previous decade plus.

    Is the extra 2% Obamacare's fault? Probably. Is it significant? If the cost of Obamacare adds an additional 2% increase annually, and our bills go up 15% a year instead of 13%, then that stinks for everyone. But if Obamacare works like it can in theory, future increases will not be so large, and more in line with inflation. If future increases are only 10% a year versus 13%, that wouldn't change the game, but it would at least be moving the needle in the right direction.

    And sure, part of the 44 million uninsured Americans are pay-as-you go healthcare customers, but that number can't be too high. As stated before, there are 2 million Americans/year filing bankruptcy with a major cause being medical bills. That includes both the uninsured, which owe an average of $27,000, and the insured, who have an unpaid bill of nearly $17,000. It leaves a huge, unpaid liability for hospitals and other care facilities.

    And under the current system, those of us with insurance eat the cost in terms of the 13% higher premiums we have been paying annually. And those pay-as-you go guys? Pay nothing, unless they use the system. But under Obamacare, more people will initially pay into the pot, and in theory, hospitals won't have so many unpaid bills. And in turn, in theory, premiums won't be rising as fast in the future.
  18. demosthenes
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    demosthenes Well-Known Member

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    How will Obamacare help with the latter category, those with insurance but declare bankruptcy?

    Are unpaid bills really what is driving these year over increases? If inflation is 3% you're saying there is an extra 10% increase in premiums due to extra unpaid bills (uninsured/default) from year prior? Maybe I'm looking at this wrong but this doesn't add up to me.
  19. jimgata
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    jimgata Premium Member

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    Estimates of the cost of Obamacare has risen by 45% since 2010. It still hasn't been fully implemented and those estimates of the cost will be even higher in near future.
    Those that voted for Obamacare were idiots as they knew absolutely nothing about the bill other than Obama wanted it.
    baa,baa, sheep.
  20. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Please explain the theory of costs reducing for others as they are forced to subsidize mandated coverage of Preexisting conditions...

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