GMO and orange juice - left/environmentalist anti-science

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by Row6, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Lot going on in your post, queen, but I'll try to respond. I was referring specifically to GMOs above, rather than steroids. When you say steroids, I think that we might be referring more broadly to hormones, and certainly many of our growers administer hormones to their agriculture. I think there is certainly opportunity for food additives to affect our physiologies, but your logic isn't necessarily true. For example, growth hormone is a protein, rather than a steroid. As a null hypothesis, we shouldn't expect any proteins to make it into our bloodstream intact, as the stomach and small intestine break those down to amino acids.

    However, steroids specifically could theoretically have a realistic impact, but it isn't clear either. Complicating matters is that many of these steroids are going to be naturally occurring. I am not saying that we shouldn't seek out the answer here, but I don't think that it is a straightforward one. Like you are pointing out, 30 years of exposure could have unknown effects with anything, but we won't know for at least 30 years. At least.

    This is also a good point. Most everyone one of our crops have been selectively bred for thousands of years, so really even our 'natural' crops aren't natural. Transgenic organisms usually have one gene modified, but our selectively bred crops probably have several. We don't really even know. However, like above, I think it is important that we recognize that DNA also doesn't make it into our bodies intact, so with GMOs we would focus on metabolites produced, rather than DNA sequence or proteins produced. Although, often times, as is the case with Bt corn, it really seems to be only DNA and protein.

    I am personally not a fan of highly sweetened foods, especially for kids. And I do think it could reasonably have a cultural feedback mechanism (E.g. I'm used to sweet foods, so I'll eat more of them > as a company, I need to produce more sweet foods to meet demand > Getting more people used to sweet foods). Also a difficult case to crack for causality, but Type II diabetes is certainly correlated with high sugar and high saturated fats (as well as trans fats). And as you point out, that these foods are cheaper would just reinforce such an effect.
  2. T3goalie
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    T3goalie VIP Member

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    LOL... You can track increase the in obesity levels, increase in diabetic levels, thyroid issues, along with Celiac digestive problems along the same line with the wheat re-engineering and steroids in food over last 30 years.

    Odd fact- 2 slices of dry whole wheat toast raises your sugar levels higher than a Snickers bar. I do agree with you in re: the quality of food. The quality of food designed to have a "half life" vs. a "shelf life" is crap. The quality of beef juiced on steroids is equally crap. The quality of foods containing gluten is crap.

    People are more concerned with the gas they put in their cars more than the poison they put in their bodies. Years ago the poorest people in America were thin... Today the poorest people in America have the highest obesity rate. Wonder why? Actually, it is no wonder at all.
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  3. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Of course you can, but this of course is simply a correlation. You can also link obesity levels with the production of processed foods, increased use of cell phones, decreased price of food, increased atmospheric CO2 levels, decreased activity levels, % of American that claims Hispanic heritage, diets with higher levels of saturated fats, decrease in price of nutrient-low foods, etc. So how do you determine when all of these factors are correlated, how do we determine which, if any, are the cause?

    This looks like it is technically true.

    Food......................Glycemic index:
    Snickers....................55
    Whole wheat bread......52-87, average 71

    However:

    I think that poor people used to be thin (or dead) because they were starving. Today food is much cheaper and US poor is much more wealthy than many other nation's (in Somalia, poor people are still very thin). Unfortunately, the very cheapest foods are often of poor nutritional content.
  4. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    In addition to that fact you have the issue that the very cheapest foods also tend to be extremely rich in calories. You can buy over 2000 calories of food for under 6 dollars off the McDonalds dollar menu. If you look at Taco Bell's value food items there are a number of burritos between $1 and $2 that are over 500 calories each.
  5. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
  6. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    "Anti-science"? Really?? Is that how it is? Someone who disagrees with the basic premis is somehow now against science as a whole?

    Give me a break...
  7. rpmGator
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    rpmGator Well-Known Member

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    Did you stop and think for a moment about corn that has a property so it doesn't need herbicide. What you are saying is, the corn itself, kills other plants... Not my thing.

    It would be better to resist herbicide, than actually kill other plants itself. They sell roundup, so I doubt they are inventing one thing, to reduce profits on something they also sell.

    Monsanto dominates the seed market and have been trying to corner the entire market for years. So not many other places to turn unless you have saved seeds from a previous crop, which Monsanto hates.

    They have invented seeds that kill themselves inside the crop, so they won't germinate, once again, not something I would feed my family.

    If worms are a problem, bacillus thuringiensis is safe to use and does the job without the need for things that effect humans in a negative way.


    Thomas Jefferson grew organically. It isn't a sin to do so now either.

    In fact the selection of heirloom veggies and fruits just taste better as that is not the goal of GMO.
  8. g8orbill
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    rade-since I don't believe in allah, you need to come up with something better
  9. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Organic farming practices are not sufficient to feed the 7 billion + humans presently on earth and there are many naturally occurring deadly poisons and carcinogens.
  10. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    While there is little doubt that much of what we eat is not healthy, we are not starving and we are living on average much longer than earlier generations. Our kids are taller than us and girls go through menarche earlier and earlier (this latter stat is probably at least partly a function of size and health, but otherwise problematic). All is not rosy, but ignoring these basic facts may lead us to think there was some golden age that wasn't and human gods who weren't. Living is detrimental to our health, and while we are beautiful creatures - well some of us - the body is also a hodge podge of compromises, archaic appendages, and down right funny, ungainly, and occasionally disgusting features. This aint' heaven and we ain't perfect, but it's not bad. Same with our food. Could be better, we should try make it so, especially for our kids, but it'll do to get most of us to 78.
  11. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Sorry rpm, I got it in my head that we were talking about pesticides, rather than herbicides. Bt corn resists pests, with a gene borrowed from the Bacillus thuringiensis bacteria species that you mention below. I am unaware of any GMOs that produce their own herbicide, but this is actually a common trait for wild plants, called allelopathy. Indeed, rice is an example of a "natural" cultivated plant that has evolved to have negative allelopathic properties.

    I am definitely not here to specifically defend Monsanto. They are a corporation, and their business must turn a profit, like all businesses. Most of us aren't going to like the way that many corporations go about this.

    I don't mean to imply that organic farming is a sin, but it is certainly not as productive a way of growing as using fertilizers, pesticides, GMOs, etc. As Row points out, we certainly could use the extra efficiency.

    More than anything, I just want us to think beyond critiques such as it is creepy that some plants can kill other plants, particularly if we are going to make societal decisions. Govenor of Alaska, Lisa Murkowski, said of the AquaAdvantage Salmon that it gave her the 'heebly geeblies'. Of course, she has other constituents that she needs to appease, but the fact that she can use 'geeblies' as a critique shows the level of dialogue on this issue.

    You don't like plants that scientists have given herbicides or pesticides, but these are states found in nature, and aren't necessarily associated with any increased risk of human harm. As I pointed out above, the "natural" culivars of most of these organisms come with a great deal of human-induced genetic modification already. I know this feels different to most of us, but there may not be any basis for these feelings.
  12. rpmGator
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    rpmGator Well-Known Member

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    Dust bowl era lessons have not done much to educate many.

    You can in fact feed everyone with organic methods. Without the cost the chemical industry says you have to buy from them.

    Science includes organics also. From BT to bugs that prey on bad bugs, there are many ways of doing the same thing.

    The problem with Huanglongbing, HLB or Greening as it is called, has been going on for some time now with the Asian citrus psyllid being the vector for this newer threat to citrus. Getting rid of the vector, does the same thing as changing the plant. They are researching this and have been for some time now.

    Still and yet, you can get organic juice from the Uncle Matt brand name. The profit from organic is higher, as demand is so high. They are going into peaches, which are one of the most poisoned products out there, and blueberry's. In Yalaha, the blueberry's at one farm is organic and they make a killing selling to Whole Foods. The premium for organic makes their berry's more profit on the same acre as those using chemicals.

    Once Temic was used back in the day, I have been reluctant to drink something that is systemic and gets into the roots, leaves and fruit and kills all.

    Had a nephew in law who died in this thirty's from cancer caused by exposure to this chemical. He sold it for a living...

    Using natural selection, to produce a better more healthy to humans plant is much better than making a plant resist a chemical, so you can sell more of it.
  13. GatorMid
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    - There is no corn that doesn't need herbicide. What you say about being better to resist herbicides is exactly what Roundup Ready technology does....

    - Plenty of other places to turn than Monsanto for seed.

    - Monsanto dropped the terminator gene technology.

    - Probably pretty easy to keep your garden beautiful and pest-free. Now try to keep a couple hundred/thousand acres pest free with the same organic programs and see how that works out for you - backyard farmers aren't going to feed the world.

    - Debates about nutrition and flavor are highly debateable.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymi...r-is-organic-agriculture-affluent-narcissism/
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  14. GatorRade
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    I fail to see the difference between using natural selection (I assume that you mean artificial selection?) and transgenic technology to produce a more efficient crop, from the aspect of health and society. In fact, when using selection, you know much less about the genetic changes that are being introduced. (Not that this much matters, because we don't understand a whole lot about the meaning of gene sequences at this point)
  15. GatorMid
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    They are trying to get rid of the vector right now - have been since HLB showed up. Guess what? It's not working - plenty of biological controls attemped throughout that time frame as well.
  16. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link Mid. It makes a lot of the points that I have been trying to make.

    And it offered this one for Row:

  17. T3goalie
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    Basic facts of health also monitor the obesity rates, disease rates, etc over the last 35 years. They acknowledge the change in the re engineering of wheat hundreds of times. The 400lb diabetic movie character "fat bastard' is now a norm at your local malls and WalMarts. Only he is a She! People are not just fat they are swollen. Their bodies can't metablolize the food. They are addicted to the wheat/sugar highs and are suffering from malnutrition at 400lbs. Not to mention 11 year old girls starting their periods from all the hormone infused milk...
  18. GatorRade
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    Excuse me. It was my impression that you didn't believe in anthropogenic climate theory either.
  19. rpmGator
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    rpmGator Well-Known Member

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    I could spend a month alone on better nutrition and flavor from organic. Fact is, the selection is just huge compared to the system that makes a whole lot of one thing. The ugly tomato was banned just because it didn't fit into the box. It took the loss of an entire crop, and a fight, just to get it to market. Flavor is a secondary issue over getting it to market. At least with the power sources that keep competition at bay.

    But in simple terms, organic means you don't have chemicals that some sell for profit in your food. When a single drop of some poisons can kill you, it can't be all that good for you no matter what type of "study" says the label on the product is lying.

    We get two thirds of our fruits and veggies out of nation already. 3,000 a year die from bad food, about 120,000 get sick each year from the same reasons. In this nation alone.

    Science hasn't faired any better on a GMO tree. So acting like only the vector attempts have failed isnt' the complete story.

    Did some miss the part of natural selection for "flavor and nutrition." Creating a seed designed to sell more herbicide isn't high on my list of things I want to eat.

    Japan won't take GMO, so you can't even sell that crap yet this is the only goal for some.

    You can in fact grow organic in large farms. Volk oil sprays are already common in citrus, and is ok for organic. Same with BT for worms on citrus and corn. Some act like you have to pick each worm off by hand to be organic.

    There are a whole lot of studies paid for by those who compete with organic. Sorry, it doesn't make that frankenmater taste better than an heirloom.

    Food is the last of our concerns when population outstrips our water resources. So now you can include burning for electric which uses a third of our water supply as competition for food.

    The ideology of organic has growth at a higher rate than other foods. While still a small part of the total, it will continue to increase as people understand you can get something that tastes better, without the poison in it.

    Right now, I have Brogdon avocado's ready. Never spent a cent on herbicides or insecticide on them. My Fairchild mango's taste better than anything I have ever bought in a store. Organic isn't only about poison, as you can't buy some of the stuff I grow, if you depend only on the large farm and eat their only selection.
  20. GatorMid
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    Why do so many get sick or die from food? Are you blaming GMOs and herbicides on that?

    How are you controlling weeds in your corn or soybeans or wheat that you grow in your hobby farm? Where is this farm?

    Also, which poisons are you referring to that are labeled for post-emerge applications where a single drop will kill you?

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