Florida Stand Your Ground...

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by ArtVandelay, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Yeah, he just happened to be taking in the evening air while coincidentally strolling down the same path followed earlier by Martin.

    There seem to be some Charles Bronson fans on this thread. So are you glad Martin was killed, did he have it coming?
  2. WESGATORS
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    I think most folks agree with this, we just don't want to see it become illegal to do so. Kind of like walking through a bad neighborhood at night with a lot of bling. You probably shouldn't do it, but it shouldn't be unlawful to do it.

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  3. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Let's stop for a moment then and think about incentives and the burden of proof. Without obscene political pressure, Zimmerman would never have faced charges. I'm not saying he should have been convicted, but he definitely should not be walking around with the assurance that he will likely not even be charged if he kills someone that strikes him with their fists.
  4. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Y'know, this is purely anecdotal, but I can't help but want to say that when you hear stories come in about defensive gun uses, those often -- don't know about "most", but often is very fair -- don't involve the person who fired being arrested, not even in the case of what Neal Boortz used to call a "DRT" case (Dead Right There; i.e. a mugger or burglar shot and killed in the attempt). I suppose if we dug out the old "Who Defends Themselves With Guns?" threads and checked the dozens upon dozens on stories, certainly more than just a few are situations that never involved the shooter being arrested.

    So, if you'll stipulate for a moment that Sanford PD was looking at this as self-defense, the fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested is not in and of itself all that beyond reason. Sanford PD has actually been at least somewhat vindicated in this. Criminal trials are not to "air the issues", they are to adjudicate and punish crime. That's why there needs to be probable cause to arrest and proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict, and why SAs are supposed to have a subjective, as well as an objectively reasonable belief in the defendant's guilt and their ability to prove it in order to proceed. Citizens suspected of a crime are not human props for public airing of grievances by politically motivated state actors who want to demonstrated their sensitivity to the public.
  5. glnye
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    glnye Premium Member

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    We are now judge and jury. We are now assessing the reasonableness of using deadly force to defend ourselves when someone is pummeling us with their fists. I have read posts here that assert that death was too harsh a punishment for someone who was trying to kill someone else with their fists (just inserting my own opinion on GZ state of mind, not necessarily supported by any hard evidence as to TM's ultimate intent) The law is very explicit in allowing deadly force......are we arguing that the law is wrong?
  6. WESGATORS
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    Can anyone tell me this isn't an easy problem for Martin to have avoided? All that's being discussed is how Zimmerman could have avoided it.

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  7. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Of course he could have avoided it, but then again he was not on trial.
  8. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Either one of them could have and probably both should have.
  9. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Concur
  10. glnye
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    glnye Premium Member

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    Unfortunately, the state could not find an appropriate charge to bring against GZ so that his culpability in creating the scenario leading to the death of TM could be properly assessed (since TM paid the ultimate price for his part in it)
  11. Lawdog88
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    But the assurance isn't that, is it ?

    The only assurance is that, if you elect to use deadly force in a situation you deem necessary, you may well be compelled to run the proseuctorial gauntlet if the authorities - and ultimately, a jury of your peers - decide to question whether a reasonable person in your circumstances would have taken the actions you did.
  12. MichiGator2002
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    Well, if you understand I'm using the term "crime" in this context to mean "general wrong doing", he managed to more or less stumble into the perfect crime. I don't know of anything one can walk up to the facts, back away, walk up again, try to turn over, play legal Tetris with that they could have prosecuted him for to scratch that itch. I'm not even sure if he parked his truck illegally (if he had, surely the SAs would have tried to assert a theory of misdemeanor-manslaughter. I kid. I think).
  13. Minister_of_Information
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    The assurance is still the assurance until the law is changed. We all know that the political pressure was unseemly and many believe that the prosecution was in bad faith, but it seems to me at least (as a resident of an imperfect world) to have been necessary from a certain point of view. Could it really be allowed to stand that surly black youths could be followed and confronted wherever they appeared as though their criminality was presumed, then gunned down when their misguided if predictable rage got the better of them? Could the black political establishment leave that precedent unopposed? Bear on mind that I hold everyone culpable, from the excusers and enablers of black racism and thug culture to the wannabe Charles Bronsons.
  14. glnye
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    I think there are probably a myriad of charges......negligent homicide, for one......something falling short of a crime which involves a finding of actual intent, where his actions may have qualified for a conviction....not taking due care under the circumstances to prevent injury or death.... Someone else in the large number of Zimmerman threads suggested that those clamoring for charges at the time would not have been satisfied by anything less than 2nd murder, so it all ended up being political as most everything else turns out to be.
  15. leogator
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    leogator Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that the case was overcharged.
  16. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    The issue would be finding anything that self-defense wouldn't have been a complete defense to and that an intentional act isn't inconsistent with the elements of. They admitted all along that his having pulled the trigger was an intentional act.

    Essentially the only way that I see to get there would be an initial aggressor finding to kick self-defense, but Gibbs can be read as requiring either force or the threat of force to constitute provocation, and there were no facts put forth to suggest that.
  17. WESGATORS
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    Did you watch any of the trial? I saw a prosecution that was dishonest and appealed to emotion. How were they dishonest? They claimed they had a case that they thought they could bring to trial and get a conviction (specifically, this was Corey's claim). No they didn't, they never thought that. This case was tried due to political pressure and if you watched any of the trial, it had no business even being there (that's my perspective, I'm not a lawyer, don't pretend to be, but it was never close to having a chance...as one juror noted, the emotional appeal worked on two of the jurors who wanted to convict Zimmerman of something).

    I don't see how Zimmerman being charged was a good thing. In fact, I think the greatest injustice here may be in how the SPD chief was fired for not arresting Zimmerman. I understand that sometimes when people don't get arrested there is foul play involved, but that's simply not the case here.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ex-sanfo...cnn-he-was-fired-for-not-arresting-zimmerman/

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  18. squigator
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    No one is glad that TM is dead except liberals that think they can gain politically from it.
  19. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Justice is a human thing, and that sometimes makes it political and social too.
  20. Lawdog88
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    So many thoughts . . . so little time.

    So, I pick on the word, "presumed," which I suppose you import and make equivalent to GZ's actions.

    Seems to me that because a disparate percentage of crimes are committed by black youth, perhaps the black and surly minority should be schooled - by whomever it is they respect [Sharpton ? Jackson ? Holder ? Obama ? ] - to recognize that a better response than "predictable rage" in circumstances where their actions could be objectively questioned, would be to cooperate and communicate, rather than take offense and act out an ill-conceived and artificial indignity, coupled with a false sense of manhood.

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