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Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by ArtVandelay, Jul 14, 2013.
Your loaded phrase meant more than that. Come on, fess up.
Did I need to be?
The facts, stated succinctly? Cracka please!
I think there's more evidence that TM was emboldened by GZ's whiteness and wanted to beat some crazy, faggot, cracka ass. And in light of the black violence we are seeing throughout this country coupled with poor police response times, it would be deleterious of GZ and any law abiding black person living in a crime ridden neighborhood to not be prepared to protect themselves.
You're drawing a distinction without a difference.
I would say you don't necessarily know what you think you do, but then again you're not the only one.
So following people you suspect are criminals around is what passes for good judgment in your book? Don't go looking for trouble. Leave that to the police.
So the corollary must be, ignore signals of trouble and let the police respond and take a report after it is all over ?
Doesn't this open the door to excuse someone from beating up somebody else if they happen to be the carrier of a concealed weapon? At some point we have to acknowledge that just because you are lawfully carrying a gun doesn't mean you must avoid unkown situations. "Acting as a provocateur" is pretty subjective and should require a high level of witness. We can't even get people to agree as to whether or not Zimmerman getting out of the car qualifies him as a provocateur.
Maybe to you that is the point, but some people see Zimmerman as getting off on this and they want the law change to where he would have been punished.
Another poster proposed that Martin would have killed him if he had the chance. We have no idea what Martin would have done. The idea of having a heightened duty implies that knowledge of the law will impact behavior, but the people who have that level of consciousness about the law and "duty" would not have gotten themselves into this predicament to begin with. People like Zimmerman don't read up on the law to learn what they are entitled to and what makes good sense. The law doesn't serve to guide them, it only determines whether and how we punish them.
One of the bigger questions I have is why are people supposed to get offended by someone following you wanting to know if you are legit in the neighborhood or not. Why is this seriously a reason to be offended let alone a reason to start a fight? I wouldn't be offended if I was called out like this (even if by a person of a different color), I would be pleased that somebody gives a damn about looking out for the residents in the neighborhood. The idea that one should properly be offended by this is mind-boggling to me.
I didnt claim to know anything. Just that Zimmerman supplied a narrative of events. But it no more "explains" why what happened happened than a book about the Civil War explains neatly what happened from 1861-1865, or a recalling of what you did today explains why you got up in the morning and what your motivation was to go to work. All these are an attempt to provide order where none exists. That doesnt mean his story is necessarily "false" or a lie, just that it could never be explained in a comprehensive, satisfactory way, especially given the story involves other people and their motivations.
I get it was not good enough to satisfy you, but somehow the authorities were ok with his explanation to get out of the car to check the address.
Call the police, as was done, and let them handle it unless there is a reasonable foundation for the belief that someone is under threat of imminent harm. In this case no such foundation existed. Zimmerman stepped beyond protecting himself or others into an investigatory role, and there was scant justification for any of it. Legal, yes, good judgment absolutely not. Leave your junior Gman badge at home if you're going to carry a firearm in public.
Leave what to the police? Did the prosecution provide evidence that the Sanford police department was successfully managing crime in GZ's neighborhood?
Minister, are you a type Z personality that would would rather be a slave to what's occurring in your neighborhood rather than taking a leadership role in solving the problem? What would you recommend to these folks:
"The people who live in the area are nothing if not gutsy, but they need help. A plan to gate their community has been stalled. With the police force stretched painfully thin, they may be forced to follow other Oakland neighborhoods and hire private guards.
“We don’t have a choice. Either die or we hire some security ourselves, because we can’t depend on the police department,” said Tarvins.
Squid, are you a Barney Fife wannabe?
Please show me where Zimmerman reported an imminent threat to anyone before he went in search of Martin. Do you think citizens should go knocking on doors and tracking down and questioning people they find suspicious as a helpful adjunct to police activity? Citizen Fife is as likely to get his head blown off by accident as solve a crime.
Point totally missed.
Perhaps you didn't make it all that well
Actually I think this part of Zimmerman's explanation gave them trouble.
Zimmerman claimed he got out of the car to get the address for the NEN call.....the dispatcher never asked him to look for the address.
Here's the transcript.....the NEN dispatcher never asked Zimmerman to look for the address.
One of the unknown aspects of this case is which one of them closed the ample distance between them. I don't fault GZ for trying to observe, from a distance, what TM was up to. As long as that distance (probably 100 yds.) is maintained all is well. The available evidence suggests that TM doubled back and closed that distance. But for TM's action we still have GZ observing from a distance and waiting for the police to arrive. GZ knows that the police will arrive at any moment; TM does not. By taking away the ample buffer between them, punching GZ in the face and battering GZ, TM becomes the aggressor and the cause of his own death. When can we stop pretending otherwise?
So GZ wasn't knocking on doors and tracking down and questioning people he found suspicious as a helpful adjunct to police activity?
Martin was a racist who felt entitled to administer an aggravated battery because his feelings were hurt. Death is a severe sentence for those failings.
Zimmerman still should never have pursued him.