Florida Stand Your Ground...

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by ArtVandelay, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I think moving from a position of safety and observation to a position of interaction/confrontation on neutral ground should come with a different standard of duty & behavior. I don't think there should be a "penalty" - just a more rigorous standard for someone who enters the situation. For now, if they are armed, they are more or less acting as a de facto police officer / agent of the law.
  2. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Well-Known Member

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    So the idea is that Martin would have killed him if he had the opportunity?

    As for the lesson learned, that's up to each of us to learn what we can from this episode to help us in our own actions, and for those of us with kids, to help instruct them about potential encounters.

    Go GATORS!
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  3. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Well-Known Member

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    To be clear, you don't think Zimmerman deserved any more penalty than what he has already faced (or at least not based on current legislation or preferred legislation)?

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  4. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I think once the case became only what happened from when Zimmerman left the car to when he pulled the trigger, there wasnt going to be much of a penalty for him. Perhaps manslaughter, depending on the jury. But its hard to establish any sort of negligent, reckless, violent or hateful mindset if the only evidence introduced is within that window, and there are no other witnesses.

    But I do think the law should be changed. I don't like the idea that someone can insert themselves into a situation, provoke a reaction or fight, then shoot to kill when it goes badly for them. Especially since legally, you're better off killing than maiming or firing warning shots. That seems particularly crazy to me, as does the extreme subjectivity of "reasonable belief that your life is in danger."
  5. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Well-Known Member

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    I guess what I'm asking is what do you believe it should be, and how would that proposed legislation have impacted Zimmerman for this trial.

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  6. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I think self-defense laws in general should be less liberal (so return to a "duty to retreat" mentality rather than a "castle doctrine"), and less forgiving/immunity for vigilante / wanna be hero-type type action, especially in the civil/tort liability area.
  7. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Yes. Assuming he was acting unreasonably as a provocateur without probable cause to believe a crime is being committed, he should be held responsible for bringing a gun into the equation.
  8. GatorEst1992
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    GatorEst1992 Member

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    You do know that trayvon confronted zimmerman right? Zimmerman was merely trying to keep an eye on him and lost sight of him for 5 minutes, to which trayvon instead of going home because he was being followed decided to confront and attack zimmerman which in that case would make trayvon the aggressor and was a criminal act zimmerman never provoked anything he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and that was keeping an eye on suspicious activity in the neighborhood which had been victims to a recent burglary spree
  9. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I only know what Zimmerman has said about what happened, not what actually happened. I am only certain that Zimmerman a) believed that person looked suspicious and b) he decided to leave his car, against the advice (not order) of a dispatcher, c) however the confrontation went down, the only other witness to everything that happened is dead.
  10. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    The point is not whether Zimmerman would be convicted under a new law. The point is that with a heightened duty of prudence while armed he would not have been galavanting around the neighborhood tracking 'suspects', or he would have left his gun at home. Probable outcome in that case: a broken nose and a few bruises and scrapes. I do not believe Martin would have beaten him to the point of serious injury.
  11. leogator
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    leogator Active Member

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    Again, follow him in your car, at a discrete distance, so that you have time to react if the person turns around and turns the tables on you.
  12. squigator
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    squigator Premium Member

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    If you take SYG away, you make it more difficult for blacks to legally defend themselves against those most likely to kill them, other blacks.
  13. reformedgator
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    That seems to be part of the whole scenario that seems to get down played or just plain ignored. I would imagine it's part of the reason Sanford PD didn't bring charges initially & what the court decided was the case.
  14. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Indeed. How about making risky police-like behavior actually risky?
  15. Lawdog88
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    He provoked what, again ? His ass whipping ?
  16. Matthanuf06
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    Matthanuf06 New Member

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    Basically the left and a majority of blacks want it to be allowed that if you THINK you are being followed you are allowed to attack.

    Think about how stupid that sounds.
  17. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    It's absolutely amazing what you guys will come up claiming what other people think. And you're right, it's really, really stupid.
  18. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Correct.
  19. leogator
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    leogator Active Member

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    Yes he did. He should have stayed in his car as advised.
  20. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    We ask citizens to challenge people they find suspicious all the time. Constantly. It's routing campus safety with regard to preventing people from entering residence halls they don't live in, like if they tail gate in. They want students to challenge the other, whether they belong there. In the general public, we encourage this when we see things that don't look right between an adult and a child, for instance, like possible abuse or kidnapping.

    So please don't try to argue that if Zimmerman's only actions were to have followed Martin and asked what he was doing there, that that alone constitutes legal provocation for Martin to commit an assault or a battery. It's terrible public policy. The law must make some margin in favor of people being just generically rude or judgmental or presumptuous, both for public safety reasons and broader constitutional free speech reasons.

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