Donovan changes course, stops criticizing Young

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by InstiGATOR1, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. InstiGATOR1
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    InstiGATOR1 Active Member

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    Here is an excerpt:

    Here is the link:

    http://www.gatorcountry.com/10/14/2013/donovan-changes-course-stops-criticizing-young/
  2. jmac83
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    jmac83 Member

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    Billy's only got the kid for a few more months, so at this point, why not? Maybe Pat's motor out on the court will respond favorably to a change in the way he's managed. Worth a try.
  3. Colin
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    Colin Active Member

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    I am sure that he criticizes PY all the time in practice, but he wants the media and fans to stop pressuring Patric to be someone else and to instead enjoy what and who he is.
  4. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    Wow. I nominate Silverstein for the year's most misleading title and argument.
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  5. MadduxFanII
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    MadduxFanII Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a really good point by Billy:

    It's reminiscent of something the baseball writer Bill James wrote a few decades ago, that bad organizations tend to focus obsessively on what a player can't do instead of understanding what he can do and using the player appropriately.

    Young's a really good example of this dynamic, though we see that more in with press coverage of him than with Billy's comments. Young, when evaluated just on his on-court performance, is a really, really good player. Outstanding defender, efficient (if limited) offensive player.

    That he was a big-time recruit and more was expected than "really, really good" doesn't change the fact that he is, in fact, really, really good.

    I got into it a bit with Andy Staples on Twitter during the Elite Eight beatdown, largely on this point. He and another writer were excoriating Young with the argument that his on-court limitations (especially in rebounding) were the products of personality failings, willpower failings. I basically made the same point Donovan made here: Young deserves to be evaluated on what he produces, not against some insanely high standard based on the hypothetical Patric Young we expected in high school.
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  6. your_perfect_enemy
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    your_perfect_enemy Well-Known Member

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    I love how often Billy uses the word 'Really'
  7. oneatatime
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    oneatatime Well-Known Member

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    By now, Billy knows what works with Patric and what doesn't.

    Not all players respond the same to identical forms of motivation.

    It sounded like, for example, that Rosario enjoyed being screamed at
  8. BLING
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    BLING Active Member

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    I think part of the issue with Young is he doesn't really have a "natural" feel for the game. Obviously not on offense, but even on rebounding he doesn't necessarily have a "feel" or anticipation for rebounds. The issue seems to largely be his hand's aren't good (i.e. brick hands). Yet, because he has the look of a Dwight Howard you wonder why he isn't putting up 20 points 15 rebs every night. It's not unlike the QB of the football team (Driskel). He appears to have all the physical tools, but if the QB holds onto the ball for too long or can't make rapid decision. It will result in sacks and INT's, instead of TD passes.

    Although I do think, in some cases it's not just about the "feel" for the game and it has to be about effort. He should NEVER be held to 1 or 2 rebounds. I think sometimes he checks hiimself out of games. Hopefully as a senior he avoids checking himself out (mentally) of games where he is having an off night.
  9. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    I think some of that is fair. We've had several big bodied guys who weren't great rebounders (Haslem, Richard, Macklin). The other analogy might he David Lee. He was a fantastic rebounder (Donovan described him once as the best offensive rebounder he ever coached), but the problem for Lee was maintaining focus and energy. I still recall Donovan marveling at how 6'6" Hayes outrebounded Lee in every head-to-head matchup. Part of that was his own maturation, which Donovan had a ton to do with, part of it was the 20-lbs weight loss Lee had coming into his senior season, and part of what was finally getting guys around him who could box out well and keep the paint a little decongested. With the rotation of Horford, Richard, and Moss at the five during the 2005 conference season, Lee improved his rebounding by 50% over the previous two years--and that was after the unceremonious benching in Tallahassee.

    All that to say, while I agree we shouldn't expect Young to be a dominant rebounder due to his skill set, at the same time he stands to improve greatly with additional bodies around him in the paint. Harris should give him a great sub and longer breaks, while a healthy Yeguete and an eligible Walker next to him will all stand to benefit both our team rebounding numbers and Young's personal numbers.

    Even given that, Donovan is right that we obsess over what Young isn't rather than what he is--or better, what he has become. He emerged as a great post defender last year anchoring our half-court defense and one of the best big men help defenders in the nation. He is a decent low post scorer, but an absolutely phenomenal finisher at the rim. He is also an above average pick setter who is devastating slipping screens because he can disengage contact so easily.
  10. jaxgator1991
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    jaxgator1991 Well-Known Member

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    good to see that these two are getting along well. pat needs to step up and be huge for us this year. he has the build to be an nba stud. i think one of the problems with pat is that he was not developed well out of high school. he went to paxon for three years and got terrible coaching, finally transferred to a high school that could use him and develop him his senior year but only one year of that. i am expecting big things from him this year. i have seen him in the gym alot over the summer, working on free throws, mid range jump shots and post game( i work at the gym that pat uses for workouts in jacksonville and work for his shooting coach so i know him well)
  11. xenythx
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    xenythx Well-Known Member

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    It's weird. Pat works hard and he hustles his ass of on the court. These two things combined with his raw athletic talent should have resulted in him developing into an All-American type of player.

    He just never developed skill-wise the way a lot of people expected him to. With that said, Pat is and has always been an invaluable asset to this team and he's done all the right things on and off the court.
  12. InstiGATOR1
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    InstiGATOR1 Active Member

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    I believe that some of the criticism of Young has been justified and shows up in these numbers from the pre-conference season last year:

    Big games: 11.0 Points/game, 7.4 Reb/game, 26.2 minutes/game
    (Wisconsin, Marquette, FSU, Zona, and KSU)

    Other games: 10.7 Points/game, 6.0 Reb/game, 27.1 minutes/game
    (Alabama St., MTSU, Savannah St., UCF, SE LA, AFA, Yale)

    The points look pretty similar to me. It is the rebounds that are the issue. That extra one and a half rebound per big game is the big deal. Within the averages Young had a couple of double figure rebound games in two of the first three other games then tailed off. Young also had one mediocre rebounding game against Zona among the big games.

    Some what similarly, Young has solid data over his career against UK and last year in the early part of the conference season Young was a solid consistent rebounder. However, after UF had the SEC seemingly in hand, Young's rebounding tailed off.

    Now this is a big deal. If Young was averaging 1.4 rebounds per game more in the other games compared to the tougher games rather than 1.4 rebounds less, he would have entered last conference season as an 10.8 point and 8.2 rebound per game guy. That would make him a solid first round pick rather than a fringe first round guy.

    It appears just eyeballing the data that similar things have happened in Young's SEC career. That is he rebounds better against top SEC teams than other. The irony of this is in recruiting we were told how great Young's motor was. Well it seems a bit more like he has read Christy Matthewson's _Pitching in the Pinch_. Maybe Donovan needs to motivate him more for "other" games.
  13. tampajack1
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    tampajack1 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that most folks know how great a defender Patric has become. Generally speaking, big men can not pick and roll effectively when Patric is guarding them because he has a great ability to help defensively on the pick and then slide back onto his defender. As to his offense, Patric has never learned to take advantage of his strength when he gets the ball down low. I saw Patric play several games in high school, and he would not look to score. He would get the ball down low against smaller, weaker defenders, and he would look to pass the ball. Now, when he gets the ball down low, instead of getting a shoulder into the defender's chest and going up strong, Patric tends to fade away from contact and take a more difficult shot. He actually has a very nice touch on those shots, but they are not easy shots. When we got the ball down low to Macklin a few years ago, he would go to his left, put his left shoulder into the defender and take a layup. Patric does not do that. It would be nice if that changes this season, but, regardless, Patric is a solid player who likely will play in the NBA.
  14. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    I think much of that can be attributed to the loss of Yeguete. Not only did it hurt team rebounding and boxing out, but it also meant Young had to play more minutes and longer stretches.

    Or maybe it is simply a matter of fatigue. When you are the only legitimate big on a team that switches, runs, and screens as much as we do, especially when you are 250+ pounds (often 20-30 pounds heavier than other posts), and very musclebound at that, maintaining intensity and endurance is quite challenging. That is one of the reasons he dropped weight, just as Lee did. I also expect the added depth to help appreciably. Even where the minutes were the same at times last year, he was often getting shorter, more infrequent rests and being expected to do much more defensively.
  15. InstiGATOR1
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    InstiGATOR1 Active Member

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    Young came into UF very raw offensively. He has become considerably more polished offensively at UF. I think most fans under estimate how much he has improved offensively. He is never going to be a first option type guy in the NBA, but he is certainly a credible offensive player now. He has a couple of moves in the post including a hook and a drop step and a short jumper at times.

    A great year for Young would be if he could grab one extra defensive rebound and one extra offensive rebound put back each game and make himself about a 12 - 8 guy like Noah was. For this to happen he will need to be more consistently relentless. Young will need not to accept a 2 rebound game against MTSU or a 3 rebound game against Yale.
  16. oneatatime
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    oneatatime Well-Known Member

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    To be fair to Patric, he hasn't had anyone his size to practice against the past 2 years.

    This year should be different and that should also allow him to play with more energy and less caution while not concerned with foul trouble
  17. NorthCaptivaGator
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    NorthCaptivaGator Well-Known Member

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    Pat Young may not be the best big man to ever lace them up for the orange and blue but he is 100% Gator and I am a big fan. He is what college sports should be all about. I'm hoping he has a great year. I am sure there will be games where I curse when a ball bounces off his hands out of bounds or when he lets a smaller guy grab a board off of him but there is no other guy I would want representing my team in his senior year than Big Pat Young #4
  18. tegator80
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    tegator80 Well-Known Member

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    My uneducated guess: Patric gets up for the big games against the players who some people say are better than him (see Sullinger). But he makes brain farts in other games and can't seem to get out of his funk. So my guess is that he thinks too much but lets it flow naturally during the big games.
  19. InstiGATOR1
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    InstiGATOR1 Active Member

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    That is the way I see it and it might be learned behavior. Macklin also showed a tendency to have better games against name opponents and less know guys like one UTn guy from the Va. Tidewater area, ie where he was from. Maybe Young can break out of this pattern this year.
  20. Go2gtr
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    Go2gtr Well-Known Member

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