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Discussion in 'Swamp Gas' started by phideltdj, Jan 10, 2014.
"Predator" fits the bill here.
I don't see it. Russell was a tough, physical pocket quarterback, kind of in the mold of a Bledsoe, but his decision making in the pocket was slow and bad. Plus, Fisher ran very basic stuff with him. Winston, on the other hand, is much smarter, he has a quicker release, and they also (seemingly) give him far more responsibilities. He is obviously also much cooler under pressure. Wish I could think of a good comparison for Winston. He is similar to what Cam Newton has become this year, but not nearly the runner. I see a little Eli or Rothlisberger in him, and think he may be closer to Bledsoe than Russell ever was, because of his size, physical strength, and poise.
White speak. Black speak.
What exactly is black speak?
Come to think of it, Bledsoe could be a pretty good comparison.
Allow me to take a minute to classy up this thread:
And there in lies the answer. You have to bring in UF for comparison. A team which lost virtually everything on offense and defense. A team which gave Rapeis the ball every 4th play to take another shot at padding his stats. When the starters ran out of gas and essentially our 4th stringers showed up on the field he got the offense moving. There is a lot that happens to make a secondary great including having a pass rush. Without the d line applying pressure the game broke open. Blown coverages and broke tackles are what I saw not, stellar qb play. Give any decent qb time and they can look good. Give them great receivers and they can look good. Let them play 2 star recruits the whole year and they can look good.
Virtually the entire year the entire FSU team has been VASTLY superior to the 2 star recruits of the entire ACC. Tell me how many 5 star dbs Kelvin Benjamin has played...all three main wrs at FSU were DRAMATICALLY better (read miles) than who they lined up against they made their qb look much better than he actually is. When your o line gives the guy 10 seconds because they are playing a pass rush led by Savannah St I wouldn't read too much into a great collection of stats.
Regardless when the guy got pressure he was better than average but not great. He was no Manzeil he just played teams who weren't even in the ball game talent wise. So many times I saw his wrs either wide open or not being tackled and they broke the play for 60 yards thereby padding his stats.
Im not saying he is a bad qb. I will even say he is good....not great...but good. When I saw him line up against comparable talent which could pressure him he struggled and didn't look fantastic. Pressure and reasonable talent made him look bad at Auburn. An offense that didn't give him the ball every 4th play like UF made many question what was going on. In reality without the missed tackles and 60 yd run after the catch his stats in the big game were very average. Sorry Im not a believer in the guy...he is a phony in more ways than one.
Interesting diatribe. What college Qbs do you think are great right now? You mentioned Johnny Football as one. Any other great QBs in the country?
I also find it interesting that EJ Manuel couldn't put up the stats with the same core players...Benjamin, Greene, O'Leary, Shaw, and the same offensive line.
I don't think anyone actually believes Manuel is as good as Winston, but that being said the skill players this year were another year more experienced and in general deeper and better.
Winston looked better than Christian Ponder or E.J. Manuel, 2 NFL First Rounders, ever did. If looking better than an NFL 1st rounder is considered just being good now, the standards of college QB sure have changed.
I can somewhat buy that experience played a factor, for at least Benjamin, but I don't think it's a coincidence that O'Leary, Shaw, Greene, and Benjamin increased their stats dramatically with Winston at the helm. All of them increased their yards per catch. All of them increased their touchdowns. All of them increased their yardage and receptions. By a lot. And that's with Ej throwing 3 more passes in 2012 than Winston threw in 2013. The offense looked dramatically transformed. I think Winston had a lot more to do with that than every one of the skill guys getting that much better because of another year of experience.
And @ horanic. I have a longer response to your post. I just want to know who you think is a great QB in college football before I respond.
I think he meant Sanford, where Lamont used to coach.
He aint too bright and he looks very awkward out there. Id dare even say he is a bit feminine with the way he runs. Not a powerful or graceful player, just sort of lumbers. Most dynamic runner I saw this year was Braxton Miller.
I think this years potential #1 pick Bortles had a solid year playing with mostly 2 and 3 star offensive players. Outmatched talent wise and playing South Carolina (they actually have a defense), Baylor and Louisville away (see the same Louisville def that virtually eliminated Miami). He progressed most of the year. I think Bridgewater and Boyd also had solid games but speckled in some garbage games. Jordan Lynch brought a different facet to the qb position than weve seen in in some time. Even Baylors qb did a pretty decent job most of the year. I even think Mettenberger has talent although the club underperformed this year but I will give them credit they actually lined up against football players this year and not teams which were swiss cheese on defense. Nothing you say will make me believe Winstons stats were not grossly inflated by playing an entire year against teams which had no defense, no real quality talent on the field and were massively overmatched across the board. Auburn just gave them and him a SEC reality check. Had Auburn continued with their first half game plan for one more quarter instead of running clock to end the game Winston likely would have been under 150 yards for the game.
Now if you want me to name AJ OK...AJ as a manager was good but Bamas talent was generally superior to anyone else. Even though Saban didnt expect him to chuck it 45 times a game he still won games, was efficient and rarely turned it over. If he needed to open it up a la A&M he did. Additionally he is a winner, team player and didnt without question rape anyone. When I hear him invoke praise of god I actually believe he has faith and isnt just trying to use religion to make his greasy mug look better for ESPN and hide his obvious character flaws. IE I dont think he is a total phony and sham like Rapeis. If you want to be an arse like Manzeil dont try to hide it by continued references to the "grace of god" just tell everyone to kiss it and Im fine with that.
When I watched Benjamin last year he was mostly clueless. He dropped alot of balls. Green, Jacks grandbaby and the other offensive players including the rb trio drastically improved this year with another year (see all returned). The Nole o line has 2 potential first rounders on it and the new coaching staff was a tremendous improvement over last year. The defense in Tally improved markedly and got the ball back to the offense quicker than last years unit.
I also never said that EJ was any good last year. He could make 7 plays in a row and then 3 plays you just scratched your head and laughed (kind of like an improved Jeff Driskel). I wouldnt and still dont see him being anything more than Steve McNair on his best day in the pros. As for the other first rounder Ponder I think Minnesota would gladly take a 6th rounder for that waste of space right now...you know before they cut him. Considering he has been beaten out by any number of standing carcasses they have brought in to replace him. I cant see how for the life of me a qb cant be great with the threat of an all time great like AP in the back field but Ponder did indeed find a way to be absolutely and unbelievably horrible.
in case you missed (or ignored) the last post, Auburn was stealing FSU's play calls in the 1st half. after FSU adjusted and stopped giving them away, winston pretty much did whatever he wanted and they outscored Auburn 31-10. at the risk of sounding like an FSU apologist, it's clear that there was no "SEC reality check" given.
My opinion: he's a very talented QB with a questionable character. I think he's fake, personally. The kid can ball though. He's got 'it'. Tebow was just as loud and proud, but everyone knew he was the real deal. Hundreds of articles on him going to prisons, mission trips etc... What does JW do? Not that he has to, but it would shed some light on who he really is. Because as of right now, his public image is pretty bad. Only time will tell.
I don't ever pull for noles, but I'm a ponder fan. He was/is the real deal. At least off the field. On the field, the jury is still out.
Staying away from purple drank
It has nothing to do with being racist. It has to do with not understanding what he's saying when he's presumably speaking English.
Maybe, but I think experience in college football is worth its weight in gold. Give a talented kid another year in a system and he will play faster and more confident.
And again there is no doubt Winston is better than Manuel. Of course, I never thought Manuel (or Ponder for that matter) was good at all, at least not "first round good." Winston is. But if you tossed him in with a much of sophomore receivers getting their first shot at a starting lineup rather than juniors in their second year as starters, I suspect both parties would have looked much worse. That isn't always the case, but it normally is.
The Cajun Moose is dumber then a door. Winston is smarter.
Response to horanic
And there in lies the answer. You have to bring in UF for comparison.
They had their entire secondary, including two players that just declared for the NFL draft, and arguably the best player in the secondary Hargreaves. Purifoy and Hargreaves were both beaten badly several times. When you say "Auburn had the best pass defense they faced," it's wrong by any measurement, stats, eye-test, NFL talent. You brought up Mettenberg as a possibly great QB and he had 152 yards on a 52% completion percentage against Florida. LSU has great skill talent and two possible 2nd round draft picks at receiver, plus that "SEC" line.
I'm not sure if Clemson had a better secondary than Auburn. While Clemson ranks in the top 20 in pass D efficiency, and had a CB declare that could be a high draft pick (Bashaud Breeland), Auburn faced more top 50 passing offenses than Clemson did. But I will argue that Clemson had a better pass rush/defensive line than Auburn. I think Vic Beasley (All American with 2 sacks against Georgia and 2 sacks against South Carolina) is at least as good as Dee Ford, and DE Corey Crawford (10.5 TFL, 16 QB hurries) and DT Grady Jarrett ( 11 TFL, 14 QB hurries) will be higher draft picks than any other current starter on the Auburn defensive line.
Statistically and based on NFL talent, Clemson's D is better than Auburn's.
A team which gave Rapeis the ball every 4th play to take another shot at padding his stats.
Is that true? Did FSU have an inordinate amount of chances to score? Let's check.
LSU had 9 possessions against Florida.
FSU had 11 possessions against Florida.
South Carolina had 11 possessions against Florida.
Georgia had 12 possessions against Florida.
Also, Winston had 31 passes. Only 12 passes after the first half. That doesn't sound like "padding stats."
When the starters ran out of gas and essentially our 4th stringers showed up on the field he got the offense moving.
4th stringers? Starters ran out of gas? FSU scored 14 in the second quarter, 10 in the third quarter, and 10 in the fourth quarter.
There is a lot that happens to make a secondary great including having a pass rush. Without the d line applying pressure the game broke open.
But the d-line was applying pressure, and when that happened, the offense was hit or miss. When they got a little time, they were able to go downfield. That's football. I'm not sure how you're using that as an argument against anything.
Blown coverages and broke tackles are what I saw not, stellar qb play.
The fade in the end-zone to Benjamin and the 32-yard pass to Benjamin against Hargreaves were not broken tackles or blown coverages. Those were great throws. There were other throws, specifically on the two drives going into halftime that were great throws.
Give any decent qb time and they can look good. Give them great receivers and they can look good. Let them play 2 star recruits the whole year and they can look good.
The ACC produces a good amount of NFL talent. Not near the SEC, but on par or better than the other AQ conferences. The majority of the starters are not 2-star recruits. But I think you know that and are just using hyperbole. I agree with the basic premise that QB's with protection and quality receivers can look good.
Virtually the entire year the entire FSU team has been VASTLY superior to the 2 star recruits of the entire ACC.
I agree that the talent level at FSU is greater than all of the ACC. I also believe that the talent level at FSU is greater than the majority of every other conference's teams too. They lost 11 draft picks last year, most of any team, and won a national championship the next year. They are likely losing 7-9 draft picks this year, and will start next year pre-season number 1.
Tell me how many 5 star dbs Kelvin Benjamin has played...
This year? 2 teams with 5-star DB's getting PT or starting.
For comparisons sake, Mike Evans faced 3 teams with 5-star DB's getting PT or starting.
When your o line gives the guy 10 seconds because they are playing a pass rush led by Savannah St I wouldn't read too much into a great collection of stats.
FSU faced plenty of teams that provided pressure and got to the QB. They faced 4 of the top 20 sack-producing defenses in the country. Texas A&M, for comparison, only played 1. FSU's OL allowed plenty of pressure this year, allowing 33 sacks. While some of those were the fault of Winston, the line wasn't exactly 2001 Miami or anything.
Regardless when the guy got pressure he was better than average but not great.
I'd argue that Winston was amongst the best QB's in the country against pressure. You can qualify that as "better than average" or "good" or whatever you like, but I can't see many QBs putting up the numbers Winston did against pressure/the blitz. Not even QB's you said were great.
And honestly, you're going to have a hard time finding many QBs at any level that are "great" when they are being hit and pressured every snap.
So many times I saw his wrs either wide open or not being tackled and they broke the play for 60 yards thereby padding his stats.
And plenty of times he simply threw dimes/accurate passes to a spot where only the receiver could get it. He threw plenty of passes where the receiver wasn't technically "open", but he threw them open. There were many passes like that all year.
When I saw him line up against comparable talent which could pressure him he struggled and didn't look fantastic.
Clemson had comparable talent and could and did pressure him and he looked fantastic most of the night.
Pressure and reasonable talent made him look bad at Auburn.
He did look bad for a lot of the night, no denying that. But you're falling into an argument where a QB is not allowed to have an off night. Manziel looked bad against LSU and Missouri. In his Heisman year as a freshman, he looked bad against Florida and LSU. Bortles looked bad against Memphis. Boyd looked bad against South Carolina. Going further back, in his Heisman year, RG3 looked bad against Oklahoma State. I hope you're getting my point. Every QB has a bad day at the office, and if your arguement is that a great QB has to look fantastic every single week, then you're going to lead to a conclusion of there are no great QBs.
I think you are also underestimating the effect that a month of layoff can have on teams, especially offenses. Cam Newton ran roughshod over the SEC in 2010. But when he played Oregon in the championship game, his numbers were pretty average. He was all but shut down on the ground, threw a pick, and struggled finding yards most of the night through the air. Same thing with Tebow in the championship game against Oklahoma, a defense that had surrendered 26 to Cincy, 45 to Texas, 31 to Kansas, 35 to Kansas State, 28 to Nebraska, 28 to Texas A&M, and 41 to Oklahoma State....but somehow forced Tebow into 2 turnovers and limited the offense to 24 points.
Those championship games can be tricky and help add to why an offense is slowed down.