Diocese fires teacher because of stalking ex

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by oragator1, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. oragator1
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    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Actually I disagree with that ruling, she intentionally violated a clause she agreed to.
    This case isn't that.
  2. JerseyGator01
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    JerseyGator01 Well-Known Member

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    I've been fired for less ... much less ... twice. This is news? What glorified media bureaucrat does she know?
  3. GatorFanCF
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    GatorFanCF Premium Member

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    I stand by my point that employers feel squeezed: damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Since this is church-related, Oragator's posts are insightful: if your spiritual community cannot support you during challenging times that community loses the right to complain when GOV'T asks for increasing amounts of their income in order to support people just like her. Face it, we as humans make this a messed up world. We can pontificate about how government should be smaller but the human needs are real and still demand a response. Is that response to ignore them? Shelter them? Fund them? Employ them? Beat the crap out of the husband and let him know that she's protected and he's dead the next time he touches her? Perhaps a mix of all of the above. But, we, as conservatives and those of us holding the Christian mantle are called to put up or shut up with respect to delivering on meeting the needs of our time.
  4. JerseyGator01
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    JerseyGator01 Well-Known Member

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    Where is the family in all this? It is Father's day you know. But I guess most in this country have an addiction to government.
  5. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    Funny you mention that. Imagine a world where people turn to their church community for support instead of to the government. Imagine a world where communities build up and support one another with their resources available to them rather than having to send the relevant portion to Uncle Sam first to have it distributed back to individuals that are in need (minus Uncle Sam's administrative fees, of course).

    Yet at the same time, we live in a world where people are somehow frustrated with evangelism and consider sharing one's religious views with having views "shoved down their throat." So lawsuits sprout up making it harder for church communities to reach out to the rest of their local community. It's a lot for church communities to have to overcome.

    I don't agree with the decision made in this case, but the idea that they didn't have a right to make that decision is ridiculous (in my opinion, of course). Pick a different church if that's not the one for you. I can't imagine a populated area where there are not plenty of choices out there. Is San Diego really short of viable alternatives?

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
  6. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    Evangelism is fine, as long as it's not govt. sponsored in some way. You want to stand on a street corner, go door to door, or rent a private hall and evangelize...knock yourself out. I might even listen if you're entertaining about it. You want to evangelize at a public school or govt. meeting, no thanks. Your religion is not mine and I shouldn't have to hear about it simply because I decide to attend a public school or govt. function.
  7. gator85jd
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    gator85jd New Member

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    The school doesn't owe her a job. To read some of the posts on here just makes me shake my head. The posters on here who are blurring the Church's mission to do charitable work for those who need help with its running a school are amazing. What if she had a very contagious disease? Should the school leave her in the classroom because she needs a job?
  8. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    Did you attend UF? How do you feel about the freedom of speech consistently displayed on the Set or at the Plaza? I think it's a beautiful thing, and I did as well when I was agnostic. Why would anybody condemn options that are not required in any capacity?

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
  9. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Question: How would you feel if your kids attended that school and her ex came in shooting up the place and holding people hostage just to get back at her? You'd be left wondering why she was allowed near a classroom with all this going on.

    Is it fair? No, none of this is fair. The best compromise would've been for her to be put on leave with pay, have the police DO THEIR JOBS and put the guy behind bars, and then maybe she and her kids would've been able to have a normal life and she could've resumed her job.

    As for the other case where the morality clause was violated, she knew the clause and signed it. If she didn't like it, she didn't have to sign it and could've gone elsewhere.
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  10. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    It's an interesting case, because the judge ruled that the morality agreement was at odds with federal law.

    I tend to agree with you that private parties should be able to make their own agreements (e.g. I am totally find with no males working at Hooters), but clearly there are some agreements that we all think you shouldn't be allowed to make (e.g. Kill this person or we will fire you).
  11. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    On the artificial insemination, the question of the morality agreement being at odds with federal law is an issue because this particular morality clause is part of the religion and that this was a Catholic school - inherently a religious school.

    BTW = the teacher was also a Lesbian, which is against the teachings of the Catholic church. I believe they found out at the same time? So both of these were grounds for termination if she signed that morality clause.

    This would be a case of separation of Church and State, and in this case the State dictating religion to the Church.
  12. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anything about that case, but the issue you discuss is the heart of the so-called "ministerial exception" to anti-discrimination laws, which was in the news last year because of the Hosanna-Tabor SCOTUS case (that churches have the right to select their own ministers free from government intrusion, thus an implied exception to anti-discrimination laws is necessary; Hosanna-Tabor applied it to a teacher at a religious school whose teaching duties included, although not as her primary subject area, a religion class).
  13. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I saw that, and the judge apparently said she wasn't a "minister"; but if they're teaching religion to kids (even though on top of everything, this woman wasn't Catholic), wouldn't that be a "ministry"?

    If this was a golf club barring members of certain gender, or certain socio-economic status, this wouldn't be an issue.

    As for the lady in the stalking case, I stand by my compromise that she should've been put on paid leave until the ex was arrested (assuming the cops got off their butts and did something about the guy) to keep the kids as well as the other teachers safe.
  14. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    The issue wouldn't be whether the school was a ministry, but rather whether she was a "minister" within the meaning of the exception. The exception is crafted to avoid violation of the Free Exercise or Establishment clauses by dictating the selection of a religious official, and thus it is confined to persons who are religious officials. Thus while the government can't enforce anti-discrimination laws against the hiring or firing of a priest, they could against, say, the hiring or firing of janitors by the church. It's a line-drawing exercise of where the "ministerial" role ends.
  15. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    Her morality clause included dangerous ex-husbands?
  16. texigator
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    texigator Well-Known Member

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    Ohio is the new California.
  17. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    Didn't bother me a bit, as it wasn't sponsored by the school and took place in an appropriate venue. Had some street preacher been invited by the University to start every class with a prayer, then I would have had a problem with it, regardless his religion.
  18. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    No I think we're talking about 2 different cases - the morality clause I was talking about was the one where the lesbian teacher had artificial insemination and was fired for violation of the morality clause she signed in her contract, but the judge/jury awarded her money anyhow.

    My opinion on the lady with the ex was to give her paid leave until he was arrested or something so that the kids and other teachers would be safe. Imagine someone that nuts going in and shooting up her classroom just to "get even" with her. But I didn't think she should get fired, no.
  19. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    Let's see.....we have a husband who apparently is violent and threatened the life of his wife and/or children. The wife works in an elementary school. She feared for her and/or her children so much so that she warned school officals. Hubby shows up, school is in lockdown. Hubby is so violent he goes to prision. School does some investigative work and finds hubby can be set free as soon as this fall, a mere 120 days away. We just had a mass murder at an elementary school in CT.

    Yeah, forgetaboutit. Just look the other way. Look, sorry her life sucks so bad, but I'm not thinking I want my children in her class.

    Did the church turn their back? really? I bet she can go to church whenever she wants to, talk to the priest whenever she needs to, I bet she can even volunteer at the CHURCH if she wants to. She just can't work at the elementary school anymore. WWJD? I dunno. But I don't think he had to deal with AR-15's, demented husbands, and the American Judicial system.
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  20. JerseyGator01
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    JerseyGator01 Well-Known Member

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    Great post, 80. Again, I've been fired for much less twice. Where are my headlines?

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