Democrat Party redefines work

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. DeanMeadGator
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    DeanMeadGator '63 Gator VIP Member

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    Those who will have to work hard are our children and grandchildren in order to pay for spiraling government spending. I dare anyone to compute the daily interest accrual on a debt of $17 trillion dollars. Assume an interest rate of 3.5%

    All those who want the "government" to pay for everything fail to have any concern whatsoever for future generations, as well as those who pay for such giveaways today.

    It's all so easy when you spend money that will have to be repaid by our children, grandchildren and their children.

    Is there anything else so selfish?
  2. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    hall nailed him
  3. ArtDeco
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    ArtDeco Well-Known Member

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    So what in my post do you personally object to? That some people slave away and do without in order to finance their dreams, or that what I managed to do without was unreasonable? Should kids with iPhones be asking my children for the money in their savings? At what point do you think Nancy should buy her own fricking birth control?
    Or, how about this, we start providing for those people in society that arguably have not earned it, after and ONLY after, we have fully funded providing for those people that have earned it i.e. (1)paid into a government Ponzi scheme that is out of cash or (2)paid for in blood by serving for the defense of the rest of us? Right now, we have elderly people going without and military families living in a social class similar or in some cases, worse off, than the welfare mothers we read about.
    No, I daresay you didn't use any "college words". You may like to think that what you said was college material, but again, that's your issue.
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  4. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Personally, I would love it if everyone thought like I did and made similar choices to me (so I can't object strongly to your desire), I just know that that is foolish and self-defeating to get bent out of shape about things not in my control, nor are such thoughts a rational basis to formulate macro-level policy in which you don't have the resources or desire to micromanage the behavior of people. A handout for some will be a hand up for others. The idea that people need to conform to your expectations to have your money speaks more to your arrogance than anything else.
  5. ArtDeco
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    ArtDeco Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is arrogant, wgb, and be specific:
    1. That I (and I hope, my leaders)place expectations on who can ask for a handout (most assuredly, it is a handOUT, you can name a pile of dung a rose if it makes you feel better)
    2. That there be a demonstrated need for said handout
    3. That the money that I began earning at age 29 after first going into debt and suffering hardship along the way is not truly MY money? Did I rob someone? Is it yours?
    4. Is it arrogant that I have pulled your britches down on this topic?
    Pray, elucidate.
  6. ArtDeco
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    ArtDeco Well-Known Member

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    The government micromanages every day.
    Have you never filled out a financial aid application?
    Have you never refinanced a house in the last 12 months?
    Have you never filed a tax return?
    You may be ignorant to this fact if you haven't done any of the above three, I apologize. But you most certainly know, if you've done any of the above, that our government may decide not to give me financial aid if my father drives a Cadillac. If he has a second home. They may tell him he made bad choices, he should've saved that money for my college ed, and that's usually what happens to middle class financial aid applicants.
    If you haven't refinanced a house lately, don't. The process is very demeaning and insulting, they want to know every dime you've ever seen and where it's residing.
    If you file your own return, you may be heavily overpaying. But again, the government counts on you not knowing the law and not having the resources to look up Section3, Table c. And yes, they expect you to keep records and bills and statements if they come knocking.
    So yes, most hard-working Americans have to submit to questions of "proof" or "eligibility" every day.
    Are you telling me the guy who's sitting on his ass is too busy to prove his relative need for my assets?
  7. ArtDeco
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    ArtDeco Well-Known Member

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    BTW, you didn't specifically mention any point in the post you quoted. What specifically did you object to? Do you think military families should be worse off than crack whores? Do you think the able bodied should be able to feign weakness while the cripples go without wheelchairs? Because that's what's happening.
  8. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I think I explained what I found arrogant.

    Filling out a financial aid form isnt micromanagement. Once I got the money the government didnt check in on me and make sure the money was spent only on educational stuff. They did make sure I was in school and enrolled in courses, which seems reasonable.

    But imagine if someone asked you every time you wrote off something on your taxes if you really needed the money. Well, you've been eating a lot of $20 lunches (or drive a Cadillac, or have 2 houses), so you probably shouldnt get to deduct your mortgage, or student loan interest, because you don't really "need" the money because of what someone else deems as frivolous behavior or living beyond your means. Of course you wouldn't like that, but this is essentially what you want to be able to do for other people.
  9. ArtDeco
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    ArtDeco Well-Known Member

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    Why would I have to "really need" it in order to keep the money I earned? Do you not understand the difference between keeping what you've earned and demanding money that you haven't earned because you claim you're in dire straits?
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  10. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Claiming food stamps or healthcare subsidies based on your income isnt any different than claiming a mortgage interest deduction for having a mortgage. Because of a government benefit,you have more of "your" money to spend on other things rather than HC or mortgage payments. Maybe it upsets you that people who receive benefits from the government spend their money in ways you don't approve of. Maybe someone doesnt think you earned your salary. The argument of who deserves or earned what doesnt really interest me, because no one will ever agree, and because its a subjective moral question, which probably isnt all that appropriate way to craft public policy.
  11. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Asking the government to hand you someone else's money is not any different from preventing the government from taking some of yours?

    I mean, I'm not surprised, at all, you've made it very clear how far into the woods you are on the existential and moral questions of the relationship between the individual and the state/collective, but it's worth distilling the fallacy into its simplest terms for others -- signing up to have someone else's money given to you, the same as signing up to not have your own money taken away.
  12. ncgatr1
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    ncgatr1 Premium Member

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    You said Republicans, plural. I find it quite hypocritical that you have cherry picked a statement from one Senator 4 years ago and yet we could go on on about all the statements Obama said about how good ACA was going to be for all of us. Lets start with people keeping their healthcare and rates going down. You have twisted what Ryan was saying back in 2009. He was basically saying you can tranfer policies across state lines and allow more insurance companies to do business in other states. This would allow employees to seek other employment and open up more competition between insurers. This is what the Repubs we're proposing, a far cry from ACA job lock statement. The ACA limits competiton and eventually forces everyone into that system. I'm sure you already know this being the intelligent person you are, why bother defending it.
  13. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Getting the public to subsidize your mortgage payment doesnt seem any different then getting the public to subsidize food purchases or healthcare spending. It's all "redistribution," which is generally good policy in a capitalist/market economy, especially when its as specifically targeted to things like, food, healthcare, child care, interest payments on things we view as good, like buying a house, or education. These things generally leave more money in peoples pockets, and when some people spend this money on what you or others consider "luxuries" this become evidence that these programs are in fact, too generous. But then you also go on to argue that are poor have it better than the 3rd world, which is true, but this is largely because we redistribute wealth here. You can't have it both ways.
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  14. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    A tax deduction is not a public subsidy. How can serious discussion be had here? This is like that simpering notion out there that all tax cuts are "spending" by the government -- all basically of the assumption that all money, at all times, belongs to the government and anything you have that isn't taken from the government to be repurposed elsewhere, is the government's chosen way to "spend" that money. It's like individuals may not even exist at all with you.
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  15. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    So in your opinion, the EITC isnt a subsidy or redistribution.
  16. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    The "Earned" (i.e. the opposite) Income Tax Credit is not a tax deduction. You really don't get the difference between a tax credit and a tax deduction? Like, really really?

    As far as "subsidy", if anything, not taking an eligible deduction is how an individual subsidizes the government. Taking an eligible deduction isn't anything other than keeping the government's grubby paw off what's rightfully and already yours.
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  17. harwil
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    harwil Premium Member

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    To WGB , all income belongs to the State and the state parcels it out for Snap over here and your interest deduction over there.When you think like that,there is no diference between a hand out for SNAP and you keeping money because you a tax deduction.This is the amoral view of WGB.It's poisonous to human experience.
  18. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Yeah, I get the difference in how you want to view those things base on your morality of who deserves what, but for all intents and purposes, they are the same thing from a policy stand point. Ultimately if you claimed no subisidy, credit or deduction, you would have less money to spend on other things, no matter how your morality tells you that you deserved or earned those things.
  19. DaveFla
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    Is it just me, or does anyone else here find the irony of wgbgator calling another 'arrogant' in here simply delicious?
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  20. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    It doesn't take much moral interpretation or intellectual deep knee bends to comprehend the difference between that which is given and that which is earned. Or, even more basically, between that which is given and that which is not taken. Hell, all that latter concept takes is aging out of infancy, I think most people get the difference between being given something they didn't have, or being let to keep a thing they did have.
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