Dem Rep stumped by simple question re: abortion bill

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by JerseyGator01, Jun 18, 2013.

  1. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    I'll take a stab at this.

    Here's the way I see it. Only one can be said to have a right to the woman's womb. If we say that it is the woman's womb and she chooses to share it with her baby, then we can say that it is her right and not the baby's right...the baby is a guest. If we say that it is the baby's womb, then we can say that actions taken on the womb must be taken with respect to the baby. I can't think of any logical reason for the rights of the womb to transfer from the woman to the baby without explicit consent from the woman; more logically, the woman is not relinquishing the rights to her womb, but rather, she is choosing to share the womb with the baby while retaining rights to the womb.

    The woman thus has the right to remove from her womb that which she does not which to carry (some people confuse this statement to imply that having a right to do something means that it is moral to do something, but that's not at all the case). That she has a right to remove the baby does not mean that she has a right to kill it, but fact is, prior to ~22 weeks, there is no available means to keep the baby alive. After the baby is viable, the woman should still be allowed to remove the baby from her body, but she should not be allowed to kill it (save for unique medical circumstances which opens up another can of worms, but that exceptions may exist doesn't mean the general concept cannot).

    I believe abortion is immoral, but not as immoral as having the government force a woman to be pregnant against her will.

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    ,WESGATORS
  2. gatorchamps0607
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    gatorchamps0607 Always Rasta Premium Member

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    Well then, DONT GET PREGNANT.

    /problem
  3. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    Trust me, I won't.

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  4. gatorchamps0607
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    gatorchamps0607 Always Rasta Premium Member

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    lol, you know what I meant. :grin:
  5. 108
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    the irony given what you started off with

    "Lots of words, but saying nothing"

    not sure what the hell you are even talking about

    no species other then man has "rights", what they have is their physical ability to protect themselves, just like what human does if you put him out in the wilderness

    if you are confronted by a tiger, is it going to not eat you based on your "inherent" right to life"?

    rights are agreed upon concepts of man, protected by laws....this one (fetus life) being not agreed upon and protected by law after a certain period of time

    nobody has an actual right to life, liberty, or happiness...all of those are conditional. Go kill someone and see if you have a right to liberty. What you have is the conditions set up by our laws to reasonably expect to live, have freedom, and find happiness, so long as you don't commit an act that hurts another, which is how the condition is set up.
  6. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    I absolutely do, and I completely agree with you. Regardless of what any legislation provides for, we as a society should be encouraging responsible sexual behavior and owning up to responsibilities when one slips past the goalie. Even as I am technically "pro-choice" I think abortion should be presented as immoral and action that should be peacefully discouraged.

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  7. Gatoragman
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    Gatoragman VIP Member

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    Judging from alot of posts in this thread, one thing we definately have the right to is being stup.......
  8. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    I don't mind being called stupid, but I would prefer that it comes along with a more specific criticism that permits a reasonable opportunity for a retort.

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    ,WESGATORS
  9. Gatoragman
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    Gatoragman VIP Member

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    Wasn't calling you out Wes, whether I agree totally or not with your argument, it is very logical and by no means stupid.
  10. MichiGator2002
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    Your tiger thinking pretty much closes the door on you being a serious participant in a discussion about rights.

    Your right to life is not why the tiger won't eat you. Your right to life is why you will try to stop it eating you. The tiger doesn't respect your right*, and you may not successfully avail it, but the right is the part of nature that is the motive force by which you will try to stop it. Your survival instinct itself is an expression of your right to live.

    *Men who have chosen the tiger's moral outlook could possibly get this mixed up and assume that something can only be a right if it always wins out.
  11. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    When the woman engaged in a behavior that SHE KNEW COULD RESULTS IN THE CREATION OF A LIFE, then she gave her consent for it to be there. She, and her partner, invited it.

    Everyone is responsible for their own behavior
    • Like Like x 1
  12. channingcrowderhungry
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    channingcrowderhungry Well-Known Member

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    That's all well and good until another unwanted baby is dumped onto the government tit. I've never been able to wrap my mind around republicans being so against abortion but also constantly complaining of having too many broken families and people that rely on govt programs. Sure, in a utopian society neither of these would matter, but in the real world these aren't two separate issues.

    I'm against abortion, but not for religious
    reasons. But it's not for me to pretend I know when "life"begins and to impart my views on others. As long as its not late term, so be it.
  13. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    There is no actual reasonable debate over when life begins. There is debate over when people feel like acknowledging it.
  14. channingcrowderhungry
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    channingcrowderhungry Well-Known Member

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    Actually there can be a debate. How can there be life with no heartbeat? How can there be life with no brain activity? How can there be life with no central nervous system? All of these happen at different points in time during the first trimester.
  15. gatorchamps0607
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    The heart starts beating around 5 weeks. In my opinion, any termination of pregnancy after that is pretty much murder. Maybe there are special cases out there (rape being one) that there could be leeway but other than that, dont get pregnant if you don't want a baby.

    Condoms for men and women, birth control, morning after pill... it's really not hard to not have a baby if you don't want it. Problem is some of these idiots don't like to wear protection (I'm one of them, but Im married and would embrace a child). The thing that makes them idiots is the fact that they dont want and/or can't care for a baby.

    BTW, I never use a condom (with my wife) and have gone years without even getting her close to pregnant. Yeah, the pull out method sucks as far as pleasure goes, but for me so does condoms. Moral of the story, it's quite easy to not have a baby even if you don't want to be protected...
  16. 108
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    a "right" is not one's natural ability to defend oneself

    i don't have a "right" to breathe, I just breathe

    but i can see from your standpoint if you believe that being born in and of itself gives one the right to life
  17. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Using this logic, why don;t we round up all the people on government welfare and just eliminate them?

    I am more a libertarian than a republican.

    You an me are aligned on the reasons for our opposition to the practice. However, we would "impart my views" on others for the same reason that we impose a strict limitation for taking any human life.
  18. channingcrowderhungry
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    channingcrowderhungry Well-Known Member

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    But my guess is that only applies to humans. Dogs, insects, and even cancer cells don't have that right.
  19. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    Heartbeat begins in the first few days. Brainwave activity begins after a few weeks.
  20. channingcrowderhungry
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    channingcrowderhungry Well-Known Member

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    Correct. I believe heartbeat is 14 days and brain activity in the 20-30 day range. So which of these is where life begins?

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