Conservatives Brace for the Possibility Obamacare Won't Totally Suck

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gator996, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. QGator2414
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    I did not realize there was no competition among hospitals. All those advertisements about whose wait time is lower must be a waste of money...
  2. QGator2414
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    A free market where the doctor and patient make the call is the best scenario. People carry high deductible catastrophic coverage as the norm (unless they want to pay a premium for the insurance company to be the middleman for the small stuff) and negociate payment plans if they unfortunately get sick. Families and Charities do what they are suppose to do. And people decide whether their health is more important than the other material things.

    Allow people to keep their Medicare taxes in their own account (better than having it redistributed and they can then pass it on if they decide they do not want to drain it on end of life care/great idea by Dr. Carson) though I prefer to let people just have their money.

    Just like now there will be outlier cases that are unfortunate. Life is not fair. But this premise that government is the only answer is just ridiculous. Especially considering government has continued to redistribut younger generations wealth and is still the insolvent payer of benefits...
  3. mdgator05
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    Oligopolistic competition is not "no competition." It is very limited competition. For certain procedures (ie. heart attacks) there is often no competition, as the length of the drive across town might kill the patient.
  4. mdgator05
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    Without the economic power of the insurance company to act as a negotiator or the legal power of the government, why wouldn't a hospital corporation start charging twice as much for a heart attack tomorrow?
  5. QGator2414
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    Heart attack patients are typically stabilized before they are treated with a bypass or other open heart surgery.

    That said most would still have insurance for a procedure like this in a true free market system anyways making the out of pocket expense the same regardless of hospital unless they are at an out of network hospital...
  6. QGator2414
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    Do you think insurance cannot be part of a free market system?
  7. QGator2414
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    Get rid of the antitrust issues and stop mandating insurance companies be middlemen (with them calling a lot ofthe shots). Let them do what they are suppose to do. Insure risk and negociate with providers for their customers. Let government make sure the contracts are followed. Let competition do its thing. It really is quite simple.
  8. MichiGator2002
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    So the private insurance market failed because it sold insurance?
  9. rpmGator
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    I was at the admin building of Baycare hospitals in Clearwater last week. They are hiring in a big way to make ready for the new law.

    Home health care is the next growth industry as it is cheaper to visit them at home. Like all things there are winners and losers, and its up to you to follow the next path.

    That building was packed with new hires. You can either get on board or fight the future while wasting your present doing it.
  10. dangolegators
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    No, it failed because it didn't sell insurance.
  11. QGator2414
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    It just gets better and better!

    Could you define insurance?

    Another laugh tonight would be nice and with the role you are on... :)
  12. dangolegators
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    dangolegators Well-Known Member

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    You're very amusing to me too. I think we all know what insurance is. The private insurance market failed to sell insurance to everyone who wanted it or needed it. Our society deems universal coverage a desirable outcome. Since private insurance failed to achieve this outcome, we now have what we have. That you don't like it concerns me not one bit. For me the laughs are that I'm getting what I want, and you're whining on a message board. Losers whine.
  13. mdgator05
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    Which antitrust issues are you discussing? Hospitals are naturally going to move towards monopolies or oligopolies due to the nature of that business. Exceptionally high fixed costs, low elasticities of demand, and difficulty in consumer evaluation of many services, all tend to lead to less competition. I do not believe that most hospital corporations are engaging in any explicitly anti-competitive activities (at least as defined by current US law).

    Competition has had plenty of opportunity to "do its thing." Nothing other than economic conditions stops you from opening up a hospital. However, have costs for treatment come down? No. In fact, they exploded up from the mid to late 90s through the late 2000s. So the time series shows that competition has been ineffective at lowering costs in medicine.

    How about looking at it from a panel perspective? Clearly, the US has more opportunity for competition than just about any other Western country, many of which engage in some form of governmental monopoly (aka "single payer" or "single provider"). So has this increased opportunity for competition lowered costs?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/high-cost-of-medical-procedures-in-the-us/

    The pretty clear answer is no. There is one procedure/country combination that is more expensive than the US (Cataract surgery in Switzerland). Interestingly, if you look at this chart, it backs exactly what I have been saying. Look at the cost of the emergency procedures in the US, which are largely monopolies due to the nature of the procedures. Coronary artery bypasses cost 66% more in the US than in the next highest country (Canada). Appendectomies cost 123% more than in the next highest country (Switzerland). An angioplasty cost 117% more in the US than in the next highest country (Switzerland). This is despite the fact that we have more opportunity for competition in the country than in pretty much any of the other countries on that graph. And yet, the free market has not lowered the costs. Why? Because procedures with limited natural competition and very low elasticities of demand are not going to have any incentive to try to keep prices lower in a free market system.

    It is just basic econ and expecting hospitals to ignore these economic rules is foolishly optimistic (from the perspective of the consumer). And the empirical evidence does not back the ideologically based pronouncements that have been given in this thread.
  14. QGator2414
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    I am not whining. I am frustrated our employees may be forced to start contributing for their premiums and lose the current policy they have. But hey some just don't live in reality.

    So instead of dodging please explain how insurance companies failed! Is it a companies responsibility to sell every person their product or service? But more importantly is it the responsibility of a private insurer to insure a KNOWN LOSS?

    I will wait for answer. But I expect you to dodge again.
  15. QGator2414
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    Insurance antitrust issues.

    I really had no idea there was no competition among hospitals. That said I agree they are moving more and more corporate with the fascist system we continue to allow...
  16. MichiGator2002
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    I would love to see dangole at a blackjack table --

    Dealer is showing an ace.

    Dealer: "insurance?"
    Dangole: "nah"

    Dealer has blackjack.

    Dangole: "okay, I want to buy the insurance now, to cover the preexisting condition of your blackjack"
    Dealer: "..."

    The dealer hasn't failed to sell you insurance, the dealer has failed to give you free money just because.
  17. secgator
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    His worshipping and full adoration goes far beyond love---but decorum prevents an accurate description as it is too graphic.:wink:
  18. dangolegators
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    dangolegators Well-Known Member

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    Well we have Obamacare now, don't we? If insurance companies had succeeded in accomplishing what our society wants as a whole, there would be no need for Obamacare. Obamacare is a response to the lack of coverage for all. Insurance companies certainly didn't fail at their one and only objective, which is to make (huge) profits. They succeeded nicely at that. But they failed to accomplish what our society wants -- universal coverage. You can disagree that this is what our society wants, but we elected a president who ran for office on that idea. And we elected representatives who supported it as well. So for now, losers whine. Maybe next go round we'll elect a bunch of conservatives who repeal Obamacare. If enough people in our society agree with you, that's what will ultimately happen. But don't hold your breath. The conservatives are so out of touch with the mainstream these days that I think you're pretty much screwed. Bottom line is I got it the way I wanted it and you didn't. So which of us do you think is truly amused here?
  19. dangolegators
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    dangolegators Well-Known Member

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    Only fools take insurance at the blackjack table.
  20. BobK89
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    Agreed. You want to spot the novice on at a blackjack table, look for the guys who buy insurance.

    Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry

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