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Christian singer comes out

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by cocodrilo, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. 108
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    108 Premium Member

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    @tilly , can you respond to post #67
  2. cocodrilo
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    cocodrilo Well-Known Member

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    On what basis is homosexuality a "sin"? Aside from the death sentence for it by a primitive OT society and the fact that a first-century preacher named Paul disapproved of it (did he get that from Jesus?), what is wrong, shameful or sinful about same-sex relations between consenting adults if that's what they like to do? The fact that many people may find it disgusting doesn't make it wrong or a sin.
  3. anstro76
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    anstro76 Well-Known Member

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    That's got to be it.
  4. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    The answer could indeed be that it defies our logic, or it may be in the point that you were responding too, which is the God of the universe, that permeates everything, and exists within and without everything known and unknown, may very well be both all knowing and still allow free will.

    The God concept is really all or nothing.

    If I believe God to be a being able to create the entire known and unknown universe(s), then why would he be limited in a smaller matter such as free will.

    If I do not believe in God, then my assumption is everything boils down to human reasoning.

    I understand and sympathize with your dilemma, I just dont share it.

    It is interesting though, that He seemed to "test" ancient characters in scripture.
    He tested Abraham to see how he would respond. Why do that if He already knew?
    Genesis 22:12, “Now I know that you fear God.…” It seems that up until that moment it is possible that God did not absolutely know what Abraham, a free will being, would choose to do.

    As school of thought is that God knows the ultimate result. Good over evil and all that, but he CHOSE to have a linear relationship with mankind, and to live and coexist with us on our level to some extent. When sin entered in, it broke that fellowship union. Christ is the bridge used to re-bridge that gap as it were.

    It is my belief that in doing so, he can both know the great ultimate outcome, while still allowing us to freely decide.
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  5. anstro76
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    anstro76 Well-Known Member

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    Funny that the debate about homosexuality always leads to having sex with animals. you guys are really twisted with that "slippery slope" mentality. And of course you can't murder someone because it infringes on the others right to live....
  6. 108
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    108 Premium Member

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    given how you agree that this may be an issue that defies our logic and comprehension, you can understand the Agnostic's position?
  7. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    Certainly.
    I respect it much more for its honesty than I do those Atheists who make blanked declarations.

    I believe though that the reason we have the scriptures is so that God could connect with us in a way that fits within our logic. Basically he simplified it for us though the ages. The Bible tells a few stories that seem illogical, but mostly just accounts for God's interaction with mankind, and gives us a clear insight to his nature.
  8. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    "The answer"? It's an answer. I can't copy / paste what Jewish theologian Benjamin D. Sommer thinks happened when that section of Exodus was translated. The paper is scholarly, somewhat lengthy but worth the read.

    http://www.academia.edu/1934153/Translation_as_Commentary_The_Case_of_the_Septuagint_to_Exodus_32-33
  9. 108
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    108 Premium Member

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    Can you see how one could say the same thing about believers making blanked declarations?

    I do respect your position of consistently stating what you "believe"
  10. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    It was supposed to say "blatant" lol....

    ...but sure I can. It is called faith for a reason. Our declarations are based mostly on faith.
  11. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't conform to the Image of God.
    Genesis 1:26-28:
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    The Hebrew word for God in these verses is Elohim. It is a word with a plural ending [im] that is used singularly. The word contains both El - the word for God, and Eloah - the word for goddess. They are combined into the word elohim, which has also been translated as 'judges' in some translations in another place in the Bible. Offhand, I can't recall where that is. Will need to look it up.

    Verse 27 reads God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created him. It is immediately followed by male and female He created them leaving no doubt male and female was the image the verse is referring to. Judaism teaches God is both male and female, comprising both polarities. Jewish esoteric thought believes God - a singularity - separated into polarities for creation to occur. This is also reflected in the words indicating the separation of the land and sea, the night from day. Judaism also teaches Adam - which means man - was an hermaphrodite containing both male and female until the separation of Eve from Adam.

    The verses I quoted above are also believed by Christian Dominionists to be the authority that establishes their right to gain control of the government and make laws to insure they have control - dominion - over "every living thing that moves on the earth."

    The Torah teaches it is a mitzvah - a requirement - for men and women to marry and have children. To not marry, "be fruitful and multiply" is considered sin. Sexual relations between men or between women violates that mitzvah. Pagan religions during that era were rife with sexual practices that violated the principles of the Torah. Some were homosexual. The religious practices of Baal Peor were particularly despicable as they included human waste in their rituals. This of course, was idolatry and violated the command to not worship idols.
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  12. g8orbill
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    • Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
    • Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."
    • 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
    • Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
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    im reading that as homosexuals shall be put to death...am I wrong?
  14. g8orbill
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    108- The Old Testament was hell fire and brimstone and an eye for an eye and the penalty for sin was in some instances death- that is why God sent the Savior to die for all our sins and give those of us who accepted Him as Jesus Christ the true Son of God, forgiveness and life with Him in Heaven for all eternity.
  15. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    The Bible historically documents it as a capital offense to their culture.

    Here's the truth. Sin sentences us all to death.
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    and where is the line drawn when a homosexual will not be forgiven?
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    so stoning gays to death might very well be an option of capital punishment?
  18. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    No. Thats not what I am saying. I am saying the Bible documenting it does not equate to God condoning it directly.
    Though that is what people are documented to have believed.

    I also believe that under the grace of Jesus we are to ALL show grace. Thus my stance against capital punishment in general.

    My statement about sin sentencing us all to death, stems from the belief that death entered the world when mankind sinned.
  19. g8orbill
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    Our Pastor teaches if a person who is homosexual confesses their sin and asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as their personal Savior they are forgiven and spend eternity in Heaven with God and Jesus- I have no reason to believe otherwise

    it does not mean that I understand and accept homosexuality as normal , nor does it mean that I still do not think it is deviant behavior-and it still means I believe that a marriage is between a man and a woman
  20. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    Christian Dominionist/ Reconstructionist Gary North believes stoning is preferable because stones are "cheap, plentiful, and convenient."

    You can view an eye opening Power Point presentation on the Dominionist / Reconstructionist movement in less than 5 minutes unless you want to also watch the youtube videos linked in the presentation. I think there are 3, the longest being less than 10 minutes.

    The presentation was put together by the First Baptist Church in Madison, North Carolina.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ohLrH8LaLlLxEPxDLsQBMFQ&bvm=bv.73231344,d.aWw
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