#BringBackOur...

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by MichiGator2002, May 13, 2014.

  1. MichiGator2002

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    15,782
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +1,853
    My plan starts with a time machine that not only needs to go back about 15 years, but also back to when a response to this might have been effective.

    Assuming we could do the latter -- it is pretty simple, either carry out the operation to affect their release, or give the whole thing a pass. Mr. Steyn's point about the wife of our head of state and Britain's actual one embracing a social media advocacy line as being a form of moral preening is absolutely spot-on. Just who do these people think those that first coined this thing were beseeching? Were they really appealing to the humanity of Boko Haram, or weren't they basically asking that someone capable of opposing them to do so?

    The optics are unmistakable, certainly for BH and like-minded villains -- the US and Great Britain (the world's two most recent military, diplomatic, and economic hyperpowers) as impotent to stop them as were the girls' mothers.
  2. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2010
    Messages:
    6,440
    Likes Received:
    133
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +538
    So your plan starts with a fictional device and ends with vague hand-waving and more whining? Sounds about right.

    BTW, the initial goal of the hashtag campaign was to put pressure on the Nigerian government to act more forcefully on this matter, which has been stated several times on this thread and in articles linked from a variety of sources.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. MichiGator2002

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    15,782
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +1,853
    The American and British governments (which could have done something about it) putting social media "pressure" -- because if ever snarky quotation was justified -- on the Nigerian government (which can't and couldn't have) to Do Something.

    That is actually everything wrong with this picture in a nutshell.
  4. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,591
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +585
    Nigeria, last time I looked, is a sovereign nation. The kidnappers were Nigerians who kidnapped Nigerian girls. The first and biggest response has to come from Nigeria, because, as you know, if the US and/or Britain sent in troops without Nigerian authority, it would be invading.

    The social media bringback campaign started by a Nigerian to put pressure on his government to act. The campaign went viral and got the backing of some high ranking people around the globe, which did force the Nigerian government to act and accept international help for recon missions.

    So I ask again, what specifically would you have done different if you were President and didn't have access to a time machine? Because if you can come up with nothing but creating a fictional machine which may be theoretically impossible and some whining we didn't do enough without specifics, then all you are doing is whining.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
  5. richmondgator81

    richmondgator81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,142
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +351
    Let's invade Nigeria!
  6. MichiGator2002

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    15,782
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +1,853
    AzCat, as noted in the OP column, those Nigerian girls are tacitly citizens of the British commonwealth, they aren't even properly "foreigners" if they were strolling down the street in Leeds. So why shouldn't the SAS have gone and got them rather than the prime minister ineffectually holding up a sign that ultimately says "someone should go get them"?

    Did any of you even read the column? I'll cite again the thrust of this -- "Whatever one feels about (Cameron's) predecessor as Downing Street Glamour Boy, when faced with his own West African kidnapping - the seizure of members of the Royal Irish Regiment by Sierra Leone rebels - Tony Blair acted decisively and flew in the SAS, who freed the hostages and killed the men holding them."

    What you have in all this is Superman and Batman calling the local fire department to get a cat out of a tree, basically -- why? Because they aren't in Gotham or Metropolis, and the Coast City fire department has the authority here.

    Typical posting quality. Do you consider the assault on bin Laden us "invading Pakistan" too?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,591
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +585
    Nigeria is part of the British commonwealth. So is Canada. Do you honestly think the SAS would invade Canada without the Canadian permission? That's one major difference between what is going on in Nigeria and Seirra Leone. Operation Certain Death was a joint operation between SL forces and the SAS. In Nigeria, it took President Johnathon a few weeks and a lot of pressure before action.

    Second difference. In SL, the kidnapped people were English soldiers, not Sierra Leone citizens. Again, while technically all SL citizens are part of the British commonwealth, for all intents and purposes, SL is a sovereign nation. So is Nigeria. And the kidnapped in Nigeria are Nigerian citizens, and not from England.

    Third difference is intel. The SAS knew where the kidnappers were holding the hostages and then acted on the information. To date, we still don't know exactly where the Nigerian girls are, and most likely, they are in multiple locations. Before you mount a rescue operation, it helps to know where you are going!

    So I ask again, if the British an the Americans are actively engaging in recon missions to first find the girls, what more can the President or British Prime Minister do that is not currently being done?
  8. shelbygt350

    shelbygt350 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +726
    Liberals have a way to always defend their leaders errors.

    (1) attack the Conservative by calling them whiners.

    (2) claim that the intentions of the liberal leader were right or good, but the implementation failed or the strategy of the liberal leader failed.

    (3) reach back in history and point to an error by a Conservative leader to justify the failures of the liberal leader.

    (4) referring to rules, laws and regulations to avoid "doing what is morally right" all the while breaking rules, laws and regulations to further advance liberalism.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,591
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +585
    (1) Valid criticisms are one thing. Criticizing just to be critical is whining. I'll ask again, if you were President, what would you do different? If you have nothing, don't criticize the Obama administration's response to the kidnapping, unless you just want to hear yourself whine.

    (2) Not putting Boko Haram on the terror list three years ago was an error in judgement. Including the Nigerian government, there were over 30 African experts that urged Hillary to wait before BH was put on the list. While it would be nice to think of our leads of infallible, they are, of course human. Errors in judgement are understandable. It's the errors of omission where either all the facts weren't gathered, or others ignored that are difficult to swallow.

    (3) Both sides do this. Well, my guy messed up, but it's not as bad as your guy. Personally, I don't keep score. Again, both sides are made up of humans, and both will mess up. I'd rather focus on learning from mistakes and hope our leaders own up and correct. Sadly, neither side does this well.

    (4) Examples, please.
  10. MichiGator2002

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    15,782
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +1,853
    If some vile force within Canada had kidnapped innocents to sell into sexual slavery or rape/murder depending on their willingness to submit religiously, and the Canadian government happened to be manifestly incapable of affecting their rescue? I'd actually probably be okay with it. Hell, I'd give them the benefit of that doubt if Boko Haram was based in freakin' New Paltz.

    Have the Nigerians expressly forbade any such attempt by a capable force to affect a search/rescue? I assume they've solicited help, since our unmanned camera drones are a violation of their sovereign territory as well (as, again, was our incursion into Pakistan to get bin Laden, our armed drone attacks in Pakistan or other countries -- not disapproving of those, just pointing out a fundamental foreign policy inconsistency in hiding behind sovereignty now).

    Here's a difference worth acknowledging, but it's also why Hashtag Diplomacy is such an implicitly cold and indifferent thing -- because the ship has long since sailed that nobody is likely to see any of these girls again other than by the good will of their slavers. That's why I needed a time machine; if anything was going to be meaningfully done, it had to be then. Now, I'd rather see us at least promoting something more honest and consistent with our intentions and investment in this, like #SureIsAShameAboutThoseGirls, #SorryDudes
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,591
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +585
    I'd imagine the Canadian government and Canadian citizens wouldn't take too kindly of British SAS forces invading without Canadian government permission. Neither would the Nigerian government. Nor the US government.

    No, the Nigerian haven't said no to rescue missions, but how can there be rescue missions when we don't know where the girls are? The Leahy Law here in the US might mean Obama needs to seek Congressional authorization before sending troops into Nigeria (can't help governments with terrorist ties), but I'd imagine there are British SAS forces at the ready just waiting for the order. Problem is, we don't have the proper intel yet. A fact that you seem to ignore.


    Again, if Michelle's hashtag was the only response from the US government, you would have a point. But we know it's not. So what is the harm in Michelle joining in with the social media campaign? I can name a few benefits, including continuing to put pressure on the Nigerian government to respond to educating the American youth that follows Michelle Obama on Twitter about the atrocities going on around the world. So what's your problem with the First Lady using her influence? I just don't get it.
  12. dangolegators

    dangolegators Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,348
    Likes Received:
    78
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +612
    If it were Laura Bush in the same situation, these guys would have no problem with it. It would have been a non issue.
  13. shelbygt350

    shelbygt350 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +726
    In reply to your liberal reply-

    (1) If I was POTUS for 5+ yr, BH may not have taken such a bold move due to my more principled stance against muslim terrorism. If they were identified, which they were, by FBI and CIA as a terrorist group, then they would have joined the ranks of other terrorist groups marginalized. In addition the country of their residency would have received support politically and with some hardware to suppress and eliminate them. I would have played little, if any golf, gone on vacation few times, not invested time/energy on cases like Skippy Gates/Boston PD (wasted time drinking beer), Martin/Zimmerman, lobbying for an absurd health care law, and continually making speeches here there and yonder with photo ops. I would have take my "oath" of office as POTUS seriously, to Uphold and Defend the Constitution and the people. More time with military, CIA, NSA, re terrorism threats and NO time with IRS to target opposing groups. That enough for you azkat?

    (2) Errors in judgement happen to all. Event or Pattern? Having Hillary as Sec of St is a pattern of an error ! What did she do to deserve the post beside finish 2nd in a 2 dog race, marry a womanizer who became POYUS and blather about abortion? Van Jones. Tim Tax Cheat Geithner, etc are a Pattern of judgment errors. So, no , obamao does not get a pass when he continually appoints people like her.......by the way her quote "Why does it matter?" as she bangs her hands on the table ala Nikita Khrushchev re Benghazi says it all. She could give a gnat's ass about the lives and protection of US citizens. Kerry is a double down on another error in judgement. Of course, you may find John Kerry Heinz a wonderful Sec of St since he is anti Israel.

    (3) True, both sides are human and do make mistakes. But to continually blame someone else? How many years (4+) did 0bamao blame Bush. Some yes, but blaming Bush for the a cloudy day is silly. When has 0bamao owned up, manned up and admitted that he was way off base? IRS? No that was a clerk in Cincy. Benghazi? No that was a youtube video. Economy? No, it is going great guns now. Taking responsibility for one's decisions is not in 0bamao's DNA.

    (4) Example: Lib- we cannot do anything regarding Nigeria due to Int'l laws, they are a sovereign nation, etc. Counter to that: IRS ! Duh!

    Libs break laws regarding voting, regarding allowing New Black Panther Party to intimidate white voters, regarding immigration laws they refuse to enforce, regarding Eric Holder and Fast & Furious, regarding IRS scandal, regarding much.

    But Libs sure want to enforce laws, however when it suits their fancy, regarding abortion rights, regarding enforcement of BP oil spill, regarding BLM in Neveda.

    Liberals love laws that suppress the voice of opposition, that kill babies, and that promote a secular religion.
    • Winner Winner x 2
  14. dangolegators

    dangolegators Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,348
    Likes Received:
    78
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +612
    You sure wasted a lot of time typing that load of nonsense. Just a rant about how terrible liberals are. Nothing at all to do with the topic being discussed.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. texigator

    texigator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    15,855
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Criminole, Florida
    Ratings Received:
    +348

    How many can you load on your Obamaphone?
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,591
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +585
    For what it's worth, the US has committed an additional 80 troops to help in the recon mission. These troops aren't combat-ready, but are there for intelligence gathering, and will be stationed in Chad, where we have better relations. Also don't have to worry about the Leahy bill.

    I still contend we won't send any troops for the search/rescue mission if it comes to that. We have political hoops to jump through to commit combat troops in Nigeria that Great Britain doesn't have to. But please don't say we're not doing anything other than a Twitter campaign Michelle is a part of. It's just not the truth.
    (1) Hillary was involved in the Clinton administration and was a Senator from New York before becoming Secretary of State. You may disagree with her politics, and rightly criticize her for the mistakes she made, but be honest. You dislike Hillary and Obama simply because they are on the other side of the political spectrum from you. It clouds how you see them and you cannot get past your bias. While it's easy to say on an Internet forum you wouldn't play as much golf as Obama and take your responsibilities seriously, you honestly don't know what Obama, or any President goes through. I don't care if Obama plays 1 round a golf a week (4 hours). Nor did I care that President Bush liked to retreat to Crawford a lot. If it helps the President unwind a bit, great.

    (2) Again, your bias against liberals clouds your judgement. Liberals can't do anything correct in your world. As for Kerry, his actions haven't been anti-Israel, but more ME neutral. If Kerry does something significantly anti-Israel, I can assure you I won't be happy, since my family is Jewish and I have relatives in Tel Aviv.

    (3) Taking responsibility is not in most politician's DNA, regardless of what side of the aisle he/she is on. Where is anyone from the Bush admin apologizing for Iraq? But hey, if you want to turn this into a pissing match about which side avoids responsibility more, we'll be talking for a long time. It's a different world today then when Truman was in office. Heck, it's much different than 30 years ago when we lost a number of Marines on Reagan's watch in Lebanon. Then, there was only 1 Congressional hearing, which shed light on mistakes and offered suggestions for improvement, and then Congress closed the books. And Reagan handily won re-election in 1984. Today, we're in the middle of our 9th hearing on Benghazi, and there is still a possibility Obama will be impeached. Frankly, if politicians took responsibility in today's world, they would never be elected, let alone re-elected.

    (4) So your answer is voter fraud, which does happen, but on such a small scale it's truly negligible. Or can you link a case where the fraud/intimidation was enough to possibly change the outcome of an election? As for Nigeria, you know if we committed troops without Congressional authorization (needed because of Leahy Bill) and without permission of Nigeria, you would criticize Obama for ignoring our own and international law. Basically, in your world, Obama can never win, and everything he and his admin does is open for criticism.
  17. dangolegators

    dangolegators Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,348
    Likes Received:
    78
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +612
    Yeah, these guys pretty much have to wait until Obama does something before they know which side of the issue they are going to take. It all depends on Obama...
  18. MichiGator2002

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    15,782
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +1,853
    The 80 in Chad would be better optics if they were actually a unit that at least *could* go in on a moment's notice, but even the optics of strength are beyond us these days. #SorryBoutThemGirls.

    Once upon a time, I pictured a "war on terror" in which the powers of the West in solidarity said that countries that tolerated jihadist groups within their borders would be at best jeopardizing their diplomatic and economic relationships (trade 'n aid) and at worst being subject to armed hostilities as collaborators, and that the rest would pretty much be self-policing. And in fact both before we showed that any such hard line was not being drawn, we saw Qaddafi start to behave re: international terrorism, saw the IRA start to behave... Boko Haram wouldn't even exist if for more than a decade Nigeria and other governments in Africa had known the good will of the US and UK (for starters) depended on them not existing. Too bad, so sad.
  19. anstro76

    anstro76 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    7,286
    Likes Received:
    499
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    St.Petersburg
    Ratings Received:
    +909
    Kinda like we traded and aided with terrorists in the fight against the evil Russians?
  20. enviroGator

    enviroGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +249
    Even though I agree with the second caption, I have to admit...

    I'd hit it! Twice. ;)

Share This Page