'Birther' Orly Taitz: Ted Cruz Has 'Basically the Same Issue as Obama'

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gator996, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2013/08/19/birther-orly-taitz-ted-cruz-has-basically-the-same-issue-as-obama


    'Birther' Orly Taitz: Ted Cruz Has 'Basically the Same Issue as Obama'


    By Steven Nelson
    August 19, 2013


    Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, a likely candidate for president in 2016, released his Canadian birth certificate over the weekend, but that's unlikely to end discussion about whether he meets the Constitution's ill-defined standard of natural-born citizenship.


    "Clearly there is an issue of eligibility," crusading skeptic of President Barack Obama's birth certificate Orly Taitz told U.S. News. "It's basically the same issue as Obama has."

    Cruz was born in Calgary, Canada, in 1970, according to the document. He automatically acquired U.S. citizenship through his American mother, but he also likely gained automatic Canadian citizenship.

    "He's a Canadian" too, Stephen Green, a past chairman of the Canadian Bar Association's Citizenship and Immigration Section, told the Dallas Morning News.

    Obama's birthplace was the subject of popular conspiracy theories during his first term. He released his Hawaii birth certificate in April 2011. A poll conducted by Gallup days before the release found just 38 percent of Americans believed Obama was definitely born in the U.S.

    Cruz, however, showed an interest in not allowing the issue to fester. He did the same thing during his 2012 Senate campaign by openly admitting that his father, Rafael Cruz, fought alongside Communist leader Fidel Castro during the Cuban Revolution. His father fled the island in 1957, before Castro came to power, and reportedly became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 2005.


    [​IMG]
  2. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    They are similar, but I do see one major difference between Obama's and Cruz's situations: Obama's birth certificate showed that he was born inside the US. What Cruz really has is the same issue that the right wanted Obama to have: being born outside of the US.

    By a recent interpretation of the congressional research service, it looks like Cruz should be eligible, but we may see some challenges to that. However, I have this feeling those challenges won't come from the same people that challenged Obama on the exact same issue.
  3. MichiGator2002
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    The issue alleged with Obama was ultimately not that he was born in Kenya, but that because of the law at the time of his birth, and because of his mother living abroad, he would only have been eligible for citizenship at birth if he were born in the US. Had he been born even a year later or something, it wouldn't have mattered.

    The courts have definied natural citizenship as being eligible for US citizenship at the moment of birth. In 1970 and born to a US citizen in Canada, Cruz was so eligible, is a natural born American citizen. His Canadian citizenship is a legal nullity here, because the US doesn't recognize dual citizenship.

    This is why birthers are basically screwups -- they don't even understand the real nature of their own claim against Obama's eligibility, so they don't understand that "born outside US", standing on its own, isn't a problem.

    EDIT: by the way, if anyone did want to challenge Cruz' eligibility, they would have the problem that came up in 2008 is that a court said that citizens do not have standing to make that challenge, and didn't say who would have to bring the action.
  4. gatordowneast
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    Hell, I say keep both and run for Prime Minister up there and President down here and see which country better supports the message. Wish Obama had run for President of Kenya!
  5. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Cruz is definitely on the short list of guys and gals I think should be in the mix for the top or bottom slot on the 2016 ticket. Scott Walker is another, pretty much any of the young upstart governors, except for the one that has rejected any connection with the only people who made it possible for him to be elected, Christie.
  6. rpmGator
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    Didn't vote for the one, won't vote for the other.
  7. oldgator
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    Hawaii is a U.S. state
    Canada isn't

    Had Cruz been born at a U.S. military installation in Canada(if there are U.S. military installations in Canada) or at the U.S. embassy in Canada. He would be eligible to run for president via same law that allowed McCain to run for POTUS. Since McCain was born on U.S. military base in Panama.

    Prior to McCain running for POTUS the only people eligible to run for POTUS had to be born inn one of the 50 states(and perhaps Wash D.C.). GOP, in their desire to have McCain run for POTUS put forth a bill in congress that would allow Americans who were born at U.S. military bases or embassies in foreign countries to be eligible for POTUS Dems, knowing that this bill was designed to allow McCain to run for POTUS nevertheless voted in favor of the bill.

    With Cruz being the son of a Fidel Castro supporter, one has to wonder why GOP favors him. Have to believe GOP would say any Dem candidate who is son of a person who fought alongside Castro should not be POTUS.
  8. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    This is a lie.

    How would Romney & McCain have then been qualified?

    McCain is older than Obama...born outside the USA
    Romney I is older than Obama...was born in Mexico

    Revisonist birtherism... :jeez:
  9. oldgator
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    oldgator Premium Member

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    suggest you read up on America's original law regarding who was eligible to become president. And then look up law s since that time dealing with the matter. By the original law, Alexander Hamilton was ineligible(and he and his party/friends respected the intent/reason for the law and did not attempt to force law change to allow him to run for POTUS). He was born in the Caribbean.(St Kitts/Nevis).

    sadly, as the position of POTUS has changed from a position of responsibility and duty to the people/country to being a position of power/prestige/political agenda there is less and less respect for the concept that head of state should be born in that country. And just as ugly is political hijinks of attempting to claim a person wasn't born in the U.S., but had been born in the U.S.


    One of the classic hypocrisies of cons/GOP is Michelle Bachman. Her attacks claiming Obama to not have been born in the U.S. ---while at the same time keeping secret from voters the fact that she herself had dual citizenship while she was running in GOP POTUS primaries.

    Ironic that GOP fails to vette their own candidates to the point that one of their own has dual citizenship
  10. MichiGator2002
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    It isn't a lie, it is just another case of you having no idea what the hell you are talking about. The claim against Obama went like this

    1) his father was a non-citizen
    2) his mother was a US citizen who had not resided in the US for five years after the age of 14, and not yet 19 years old, and therefore ineligible to confer citizenship by virtue of her own.

    Those both being true, under the law as it was then, he could only obtain natural citizenship from his mother if born in the US. That is the only reason why Kenya vs. Hawaii mattered. If his father would have been a citizen? Wouldn't have mattered. If his mother had been within the residency window? Wouldn't have mattered. Had Obama himself been born just 1-2 years later? Wouldn't have mattered. But his parents and he law at that time are why it mattered that he was born in Hawaii, because his circumstances were such that he could only be natural born if born in the US.

    In 1970, after revision in the immigration law and the facts of Cruz's birth, his natural citizenship is unambiguous, because he was eligible for citizenship at birth.
  11. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    So Romney I who ran for POTUS and was born outside the US was eligible?


    McCain who was born outside the US was eligible?
  12. MichiGator2002
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    Has it penetrated yet, or can it even penetrate, that born outside the US is NOT the sole conclusive factor of whether or not someone is a "natural born citizen"?

    In the dwindling hope that it can crack through the fail-osphere, here is language from a 2011 Congressional Research Service report --

    "The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term 'natural born' citizen would mean a person who is entitled to US citizenship 'by birth' or 'at birth', either by being born 'in' the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to US citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for US citizenship 'at birth'".

    Obama's natural born status comes solely by virtue of being born in Hawaii, because his mother did not have legal status to confer citizenship on him if he had been born in Kenya. ***He could have been born in Kenya had his mother been a) over 19 and b) had loved in the US for five years after turning 14, and still been a natural born citizen.*** Do you get that yet? Cruz or McCain fit the legal requirements to be eligible for citizenship at birth even born abroad. Obama would not have been because of his parents' specific legal statuses; he derives natural birth citizenship the way an anchor baby does, basically.
  13. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me but I thought the whole thing with Obama was whether he actually was born in Hawaii due to his parents' situation (see above)? Frankly I'm not a birther - I'm from PR so I'll tell you right now people will think anything "different" might be a fake certificate. I'm the last person to judge anything regarding birth certificates :laugh:

    Anyways, if there's been some kind of definition and Cruz meets it then okay - I do have a problem with ANYONE holding dual citizenship running for President. If he's dropped the Canadian citizenship then okay.
  14. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Its not that I don't understand what you're saying...
    I'm far from being a self-proclaimed "birther" expert...


    In regard to the time of G Romney....

    The New York Law Journal published a lengthy argument by a senior partner from Sullivan & Cromwell, one of Manhattan's elite law firms, arguing that the fact that both of George Romney's parents were U.S. citizens clearly established him as a "natural born citizen" who was eligible to be president.

    George Romney himself was unequivocal.

    "I am a natural born citizen. My parents were American citizens. I was a citizen at birth," he said, according to a typewritten statement found in his archives.

    At one point, the Congressional Research Service - an arm of the Library of Congress that is supposed to provide authoritative but impartial research for elected members - advised that its analysts agreed with George Romney, according to a congressional source.

    In a paper in November aimed at clarifying presidential eligibility, the Congressional Research Service declared that the practical, legal meaning of "natural born citizen" would "most likely include" not only anyone born on U.S. soil but anyone born overseas of at least one parent who was a U.S. citizen.


    Seems like these legal opinions would have made Obama eligible also....
    (No US time requirement or age mentioned for parent)



    http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_citizen.htm

    Citizenship status of Barack Obama's parents

    The forwarded email asserts that because Obama's Kenyan father wasn't a U.S. citizen, and because his mother, who was a citizen, didn't fulfill the supposed legal requirement of "resid[ing] in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16," Obama himself was therefore not a citizen at birth.

    That is false on two counts:
    1.Obama was born on U.S. soil — in Honolulu, Hawaii — and was therefore a citizen at birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment (and the principle of jus soli).

    2.The stated residency requirement, in effect between 1952 and 1986, applied only to parents of individuals born outside the United States.


    Therefore Barack Obama is, in fact, a U.S. citizen. However, some still argue that he is not a natural-born citizen. The reasons have to do with the disputed meaning of the term "natural born."

    'Natural born' vs. 'native born'

    In lawsuits challenging Obama's Constitutional eligibility it has been argued that while birth on U.S. soil confers "birthright" or "native-born" citizenship, it does not confer natural-born citizenship unless both parents are also U.S. citizens. Citing precedents they claim establish the Framers' intent to disqualify individuals who could possess dual nationality or dual allegiance by virtue of having a foreign national for a parent, these litigants assert that such an individual ought not to be regarded as a natural-born citizen eligible to hold the office of the presidency (for example, see Leo D'Onofrio, "Why Obama Is Ineligible - Regardless of His Birthplace").

    But among Constitutional scholars the distinction between "natural born" and "native born" is not universally accepted as a crucial one. Short of a Supreme Court decision or legislative statute settling the matter, it remains but one way of interpreting a longstanding legal ambiguity concerning the eligibility clause. There are other interpretations, most notably that found in an analysis of Republican presidential candidate John McCain's standing as a natural-born citizen conducted in 2008 by former U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson and Constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe. In their view — "based," Tribe and Olson wrote, "on the original meaning of the Constitution, the Framers' intentions, and subsequent legal precedent" — either the fact of birth on U.S. soil or the fact of birth to parents who are U.S. citizens is independently sufficient to confer natural born status.


    Decided law or not this definition of natural or native born?
    Or is it opinion until challenged and decided by a court of law?





    Its all stupidity...Obama is a US citizen because he was born here (like most of us) irrespective of his parents (one of which was a citizen also)

    You make it sound like his citizenship is questionable like "an anchor baby" when in its simplest form its the most direct way of proving one's "natural born" status
  15. GatorRade
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    Appreciate the work, 996. I do think that Michi is saying something a bit different though. I think that he is arguing that if Obama was born outside of the US, he wouldn't have been deemed a "natural citizen" at birth due to the specific characteristics of his parents, one non-citizen and one whatever-the-heck-we-are-claiming-his-mother-is. Since he was clearly born on US soil, obviously none of that matters, however. But if I am reading him right, Michi is saying that, because of these issues, it did matter where he was born, which is not the case for Cruz.

    Personally, I really don't have much of an idea whether he is right, but it is a possibility that there is some legal distinction due to the legal status of his parents.
  16. gator996
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    If you know how long Cruz's parents resided in the US before birthing him in Canada.
    I don't.


    Michi's argument seems specious versus the news articles that seem to have conferred that all of this is legal interpretation...not hard law.

    There was a CRS in 2011 but it sounds like the article is referring to one which was timely to G Romney's run.

    And its explanation sounds like it would have OK'd Obama too.
  17. MichiGator2002
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    996, what you have failed utterly to grasp, just as you are flat out wrong every time you touch on pretty much any legal/constitutional subject, is why the Hawaii or Kenya question mattered. If you understood that, you would understand why there is no question that Ted Cruz or John McCain are natural born citizens within the constitutional use of that phrase.

    You are, in a way, on the same level as the birthers who quack Kenya Kenya Kenya as though it was the sole deciding factor, not realizing that under other circumstances or at another time it wouldn't have mattered if Obama were born in Kenya for him to have been a natural born citizen regardless. His unique circumstances are why he had to be born in the US to be a natural born citizen, not a bright line rule.
  18. LittleBlueLW
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    Well the voters spoke (twice) and essentially said they didnt care where BO was born so why is this even an issue? It's not like the constitution has been strictly adhered to in most all of our lifetimes anyway.

    At least we havent read about many Canadians flying airplanes into tall buildings or strapping bombs to their chests and walking into crowded markets.
  19. cjgator76
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    Way, way wrong.

    There has been a statute on the books since 1790 making certain people born outside the (now 50) states "natural born citizens."

    No law was changed to make McCain eligible. There was no "bill put forth" and no vote was taken re: Americans born on military bases.

    You may be referring to a nonbinding Senate resolution, S. Res. 511, which simply expressed the Senate's belief that McCain is indeed a natural born citizen. Cosponsors of the resolution included Clinton, Leahy and Obama, and it was agreed to by unanimous consent of the Senators present. This is the full text:

    As you can see, the resolution doesn't pretend to change any law.
  20. GatorRade
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    It sounds like you have specific knowledge of how Obama's particular situation interacts with the law, Michi. Personally I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't mind expounding upon it a bit more. By 996's research (and it seems that he is right), George W Romney would have likely been eligible to become president, despite being born in Mexico in 1907. Both of his parents were US citizens. Now if we picture an alternate reality, where Obama's mother, a US citizen, would have given birth to him in Kenya, what is the legal difference here between him and Romney?

    This story at the HuffPost claims that Obama would be a citizen even if born in Kenya, due to his mother's citizenship (citing this information), but I'm not sure how legitimate this is. Would you mind illuminating the specifics?

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