Bigs Next Year...

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by UFnuts, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. JBSouthpaw
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    JBSouthpaw Member

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    I don't see why a mental medical issue would be treated any different than a physical medical issue. Not sure if there is a precedence anywhere though. I think the issue would be "did he miss the whole year because of it?" as Billy had his guidelines on him coming back.
  2. bakaduin
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    bakaduin Moderator

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    I tend to be in the middle of your optimism and aka's depression. I have a strong feeling that Hill will make a big leap and improve his shooting and ability to finish at the rim. I don't think there will be a huge drop off between Wilbekin and HIll.

    Frazier worries me. I know we have debated it ad nauseum but he needs to improve by quite a bit this summer to be the player we need him to be. Early and mid season when teams weren't focused on him (and therefore he got open) he was a great threat because he can absolutely drain open 3's. As soon as teams became determined to take him out of games he struggled immensely. If he isn't shooting and making 3's his game isn't developed enough to contribute in other ways. Great players find ways to get space. Frazier has not shown that ability. He needs to improve his ability to drive to facilitate his ability to take 3's. DFS is the opposite problem. He needs to consistently make the open 3's as teams have learned to stay back and wait for him to drive. I'm hoping he becomes more consistent.

    I think Walker/Carter/Murphy will provide the bulk of our points with Hill facilitating and making open shots. Like past years we will go as far our defense takes us.
  3. JBSouthpaw
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    JBSouthpaw Member

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    I think one difference you'll see next year, will be Hill's driving and finding a shooter open for a 3. With Scottie, the ball seemed to just move around the outside, so no need for the defense to collapse at all. I think Hill will change that.
  4. JBSouthpaw
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    JBSouthpaw Member

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    DFS will get more shots too. Next year I see our leading scorers in order during the regular season:

    MF
    Hill
    DFS
    C. Walker
    Carter
    Robinson
    Murphy

    Top 5 of this group in Double figures.
  5. SmootyGator
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    SmootyGator Well-Known Member

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    The missing "E" here changes your post completely! :D
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  6. Bradass
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    Bradass Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why either, my point was
    1) that it would be a novel thing to claim to try to get another year of eligibility, and
    2) that there have been no reports of any kind of mental problems or anything like that with Damontre at all, so trying to pull that card with the NCAA right now would probably not work.
  7. Jonas
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    Jonas Well-Known Member

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    I'm not too worried about Fraizer. If a team is making a concerted effort to take him away, it means other players will have easier looks at the basket. We just couldn't take advantage of that against UConn I think. (Btw Ollie would have looked less like a genius if DFS went off like he is capable of doing). The only issue is if games like that bleed into games where he does get open looks. Billy commented that happened from the Albany to Pitt game. He'll have another year to mature, so I'm not worried.
  8. bullish
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    bullish Well-Known Member

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    I am not worried about Frazier, because Francis will be chomping at the bit. he has got the shake and bake to get open and is a scorer.
  9. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    Actually, teams were paying attention to him from the arc early in the year and he showed a great ability to get to the rack. See, for instance, our final possession of the UConn game. It was in February and early March that he lit it up from the arc because teams were helping in the lane on Wilbekin and Frazier and doubling the post more frequently on Young. He was getting those shots because it was within the framework of the offense. Kinda like Donovan said when the beat guys kept asking him why Frazier wasn't shooting more.

    What you want out of Frazier is just not the sort of player he is. You want him to create his own offense from the arc. Did we ever ask the same thing of Humphrey? No. Green, Walsh, Roberson, Dupay, yes, but not Humphrey, and he is the far better analogue to Frazier. Humphrey got better at shooting off the high pick and rolls as a senior, but he still took most of his shots off skip passes and weakside ball rotation because teams were helping on Noah and Horford in the paint. Frazier is already better hitting his mid range shots, scoring in the lane, and hitting his free throws than Humphrey was and if he can start getting his shots off the high ball screen the way Wilbekin started this year (I could probably count on one hand the number of times he did that the three previous years, yet as a senior it was a regular occurrence) he can become a dynamite lead scorer. But he will never be a true high volume offensive threat because he plays within a system that doesn't favor it and because he is more comfortable reading and reacting, not forcing the action,
  10. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    Really good question and I have no clue. What he does best (face up in lane, post ups) aren't skills we use much at the three, nor does he have the ball skills or shot to play there right now. On the other hand, he is entirely too thin and weak to play the four. That's why I don't expect much from him next year. But give him a year and he could be special.

    I also think where he starts is sort of tied to where Murphy plays. Will Murphy get most of his minutes as a stretch four or a big three? He probably needs to get his shot improved at the four, but I think that is the ideal spot for him. His athleticism would be a real mismatch for most fours and he played there his year and a half at Duke. On the other hand, he has a nice handle and I know Donovan loves the rebounding and defense a bigger wing brings to our zones.
  11. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    My only reason for optimism on this front is that the NCAA has become slap happy with waivers in recent years. If Harris graduates on time, gets into graduate school, and stays in the good graces of the staff, I could conceivably see us applying for a hardship owing to the fact that he was suspended for an entire year and was rendered ineligible by the school for no apparent legal- or NCAA-related infractions. Lots would have to happen for that to come to fruition, though.
  12. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    Similar in terms of athleticism and size, though thicker and more physical. He can do some of the same things. I think he compares to Prather pretty well. Here is what Donovan said when he started at practice:

  13. bakaduin
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    bakaduin Moderator

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    Again I can't help but disagree with you. Absolutely things need to come within the framework of the offense. That being said anyone who has watched great 3 point shooters in college (Humphrey, Diebler, Rautins, Stauskas, etc) can see was what made them great was their ability to get off shots when they weren't sitting unguarded and their ability to develop somewhat of a driving game to at least keep players honest. Humphrey did not drive to the basket often but he did it enough.

    Actually Humphrey is the perfect example to counter your point as you say he is an analogue to Frazier. Humphrey knew he was our dominant 3 pt thread (though Green was no slouch when left open much like Wilbekin). He was surely guarded and opposing teams kept track of him (yes they had other players to keep track of but it isn't like Frazier is surrounded by crap). I guarantee other teams didn't say, help off Hump and let him try to beat us. So how many 3's did Hump put up in the final tournament? 49. He made 46% of them. He averaged over 8 a game. Frazier shot 29 for the tournament or 5.8 a game at a respectable 38% clip.

    My problem with your opinion is twofold. The first is that you can't acknowledge that, at this point in his career, Frazier does a poor job of getting open for shots. It is always down to "scheming" by the other team. As if every other great 3 point shooter played against a team without a defender. The second problem is you claim our system doesn't favor that type of player. It sure favored Lee Humphrey. Michael Frazier is a very good basketball player who will improve every year he is here. He may never be able to drive as well as Stauskas or defend as well as Wilbekin but he can shoot the lights out of the ball from 3 point range and that skill is something we desperately need. There were multiple times in the UCONN game where Frazier had an open window to get a shot off before a defender recovered and he passed them up for worse looks by WIlbekin time and time again. That is something that I suspect, and hope, will change with another offseason training with Teddy.
  14. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    And my problem with your opinion is that you view "great three point shooters" as a flat category. Give me a few examples of how Humphrey "got open" outside of catch and shoot opportunities off ball screens, ball rotation to the weakside or skip passes in help situations, and the occasional shot off a side ball screen? And as I said, Frazier already has more in his arsenal offensively than Humphrey ever did. How often did Hump pump fake and hit a mid range shot the way Frazier did this year? Or take a dribble weave or a high ball screen to the rack the way Frazier did at times? It took Hump until the end of his junior year to start taking a pump fake three.

    What Frazier doesn't have, though, are Noah and Horford forcing doubles in the post to create open looks. When teams were collapsing more to eliminate Prather (note the correlation between Frazier's meteoric rise in shot makes/attempts with Prather's decreasing makes/attempts in the lane), as well as Wilbekin and Young, he had more, better shots--and he made them.

    Can Frazier improve? Sure. I said above the next step is for him to get better reading and shooting off the high ball screen. But he isn't Reggie Miller frenetically running around the court and shaking his defender, and he probably never will be. Neither was Humphrey.

    And playing within the system and "scheming", that has been Donovan's contention when box score watchers raise the question for the last month of the season. But what does he know?
  15. tampajack1
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    Frazier is a great shooter with a quick release. What I would like to see from him is what we have seen over the years from great SEC shooters such as Chris Lofton, Rotnei Clark and Marshall Henderson. What these guys did was to never stop busting their butts to come off of off-ball screens to get open for their shots. I have not seen the same from Frazier.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  16. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    Precisely. Good point. Donovan mentioned that exact thing when Fraizer missed so many against Pitt after being frustrated over the lack of clean looks against Albany. Part of that is just the maturation process. The kid went from the bench shooter to our first perimeter option this season, and with that will come some growing pains in terms of focus, aggressiveness, confidence, etc.

    And Ollie would have also looked less like a genius had some of our other players converted looks in the paint when UConn was face guarding Frazier on the perimeter, hedging on ball and off ball screens against him, etc. There was very little doubling on the post or help in the paint, especially in the first half, but we failed to convert. We were 1-8 from the floor in the final ten minutes of the first half.
  17. GatorPlanet
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    GatorPlanet Well-Known Member

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    Scottie became a very strong finisher, but Kasey has an ability to break down a defense with penetration that we haven't seen before. He riddled Pittsburg when he got into the paint.
  18. your_perfect_enemy
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    your_perfect_enemy Well-Known Member

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    Frazier wasn't surronded by nothing, but the floor was a lot more open for Humphrey. Wilbiken and Greene I would call a wash with their shooting range/ability, but Brewer while not a great 3 point shooter was good enough to strech the floor significantly more than Prather, Horford had much more range then Yeguette and Noah a little more than Young, so teams weren't able to lock him down as much as Frazier.
  19. bakaduin
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    bakaduin Moderator

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    I agree with you completely on this point. The loss was a team loss. If DFS hits his wide open looks we have a great shot of winning. If Pat Young and Yeguete make their shots in the first half we may have blown UCONN out. If Wilbekin makes tough shots he usually makes we do ok.

    We will have to agree to disagree on Frazier. I saw him pass up a handful of open looks in the UCONN game when he was a better scoring option. One play that sticks firmly in my mind he passed up two looks where he would have had a clean shot as a defender scrambled to cover. After the second look he passed to Wilbekin who quickly turned the ball over and it was 2 points for UCONN.

    The great 3 point shooters release the ball so quickly that they need an barely an inch of space to have a "clean look". A shot fake, a jab step, a defender going around a screen, or a quick handoff is plenty of space to knock one down. Frazier has that type of shot and it is frustrating to see him unable to see him get shots off. Just for the record Frazier took 3 shots in the first 10 minutes of the game vs UCONN. He did not attempt a shot for the next 30 minutes. If you have a player on the court who can't get a shot for 30 minutes in a game you are basically playing 4 on 5 offensively. That should never happen.
  20. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    There's a huge difference between 2 all-NBA post players and Young/Yegeute/DFS. HUGE. Literally, Horford has made All-NBA in the past and Noah might make 1st team this year, but will definitely make at least 2nd. That's two of the top 15 players in the entire world and we had them both together in college for a year longer than they ever should have been. Plus, we had another lottery pick that was a better scorer his soph and junior years than DFS has been this year.

    Yegeute was no threat to score, so teams simply ignored him on offense. Young rarely required a double team, but they only had to use Yegeute's guy or the guys already sagging in the lane. When Hill was in, they just sagged off him. It's also no coincidence that once DFS went cold and teams started ignoring him, Frazier barely scored anymore. Teams were playing a box and 1 on him at times.

    Humphrey never had that problem. He always had a low post scorer that required a double and most of the time two at once. He was always playing beside a point guard that could hit a 3 - either Hodges or Green, and teams never sagged off Brewer the way they did DFS.

    Even with all the limitations of our offense this year, Frazier still hit more 3's than Humphrey did in any season while hitting a similar %. He also took more 2's and more free throws meaning he was driving more than Humphrey did. He rose up and shot over players, something Humphrey never did.

    I think you're not remembering what Humphrey did for us. He stood outside the 3 point line and took open 3 pointers and nailed a ton of them,but he never created his own shot because he never had to. Frazier, while still not good enough to create his own shot all the time, is ahead of Humphrey in that department. That's not a knock on Humphrey, just pointing out that Frazier is better especially considering how much better our offense was back then.
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