Biden vs Hillary in 2016- Vote for the Doofus

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gatordowneast, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Pleeeeeaaase don't throw me into that briar patch (by nominating another GOP candidate who ignores the conservative base of the party to try to convince democrats and independents to vote for him)!
  2. cjgator76
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    cjgator76 Well-Known Member

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    This.
  3. GuyWhiteyCorngood
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    GuyWhiteyCorngood Well-Known Member

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    The "base" is an abstract concept - at least it should be. It typically seems to include the squeakiest wheels, not necessarily the mainstream.
  4. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    What exactly "base" do you think the GOP has that could win an election without picking up some libertarian or squishy, moderate liberal votes?

    If every committed GOP base-er votes for a candidate but you don't pick up anyone else, that candidate loses.

    If picking up one of anyone else means losing more than one of your base, that candidate loses.

    I would vote for Rubio, I would probably vote for Rand Paul (as long as he doesn't make a run to the right to sweet talk religious conservatives), but you nominate someone like Cruz or Santorum or whoever the flavor of the day hard rightist is, I would vote for either Hillary or Biden without hesitation given that choice.

    The GOP has an issue right now, they face a monumental battle to win a national election with just their base (it would in essence require an abysmal Democratic turnout to do so), but they're convinced that they can't do anything that would gain any other voters without turning off their base. Not sure how exactly you resolve that.
  5. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Then what you're really saying here is conservative ideology is LESS important than the other stuff, because that's what appeals to a voter like myself.

    Admittedly, I liked Romney and volunteered for him in Florida in 2008, but he really was a different person than the campaign version of him we say in 2012. I'm not opposed to people willing to work across the aisle, but a "moderate" as such isn't going to excite the base.

    That said, if the base is about feeling good about their team they can get such a candidate - one that will spit vitriol and espouse grand ideals they'd never actually work toward and they'll lose soundly.

    Primarily, I just hope Libertarians take another step toward legitimacy and let the two clown parties duke it out for their brainless, cheering minions.
  6. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I think there is a genuine belief (and it is just that, because there isnt much data to support it) that there's this large reservoir of conservatives that have been sitting out elections and staying home until the next Reagan is nominated. They're just waiting for a reason to go to the polls, and the GOP hasnt given them one.
  7. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Premium Member

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    I'm looking at those on the TH left who thinks Cruz is not the guy, which makes me think, he could be. We do not want the lefty libbies, greenies, Environmental wac jobs, democrats, media, RNC establishment or a palm reader picking our candidate. Ronald Reagan was the anti all those candidate in both 76 and 80 and kicked Carter's ass.Because he stood for something and could articulate his message with humor and humility.
  8. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    This is literally the same thing you said about every leading candidate in the primaries last time around.
  9. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    I think it's much more a matter of trying to discuss the issue rather than believing that what we post here today will determine who will be the GOP nominee in 2016. So quit pretending I'm trying to talk the GOP into something.
    Throughout the 2012 primaries, I kept telling you guys that you'd end up with Romney. That you had to end with Romney to have a chance.
    If I had my choice, you would have gone with Santorum/Palin just to insure an Obama win. For some reason, the GOP couldn't come up with one candidate other than Romney would would have been even close, even with Obama being pretty beatable.
    Santorum was a flake. Gingrich is just a jerk. Cain couldn't be bothered to learn a thing about anything and considered the whole campaign a goof until he dropped out. And Bachmann? Bachmann??

    I think Cruz would be off in the flake/jerk category.
  10. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Depressed conservative turnout is why Obama has a second term. Romney did everything the left says a GOP candidate has to do, trolled for independents, trolled for disappointed democrats, walked into the trap of thinking the fact that he's rich means he had to waste time convincing stupid people that he isn't evil... and go his pants pulled down because he couldn't even muster the votes McCain, a legitimate disappointment in his own right whose campaign was already over until he breathed life into it by picking his running mate.

    How many times do GOP candidates have to lose taking the advice of people who don't want them to win before they stop doing that?
  11. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Ronald Reagan, if he was around today, would get exactly the same "I don't know if we can trust him, he won't stand on principle, compromises with Democrats too much" treatment that Rubio is getting now.

    Why? He made deals on issues that weren't 100% what the loudest people in the party wanted, and in the current political environment that's a death sentence.
  12. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Uh, who do you think picks those candidates?

    I think you have a somewhat skewed impression of "the base."
  13. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    An easy thing to do. I probably have a skewed impression too, but its tempered by the fact that my parents who vote in every Republican primary and election, and who would never, ever vote Democrat have loved McCain, Romney, Guiliani and are somewhat baffled by the Tea Party phenomenon. This doesnt seem typical to me based on my experiences on this board, but there have to be other people out there like this, because these are the people that keep winning presidential primaries.
  14. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    We are cursed with too many open primaries, is one significant factor, and even when there aren't, I could probably name a half dozen people in Florida who change registrations every time to vote in the GOP primary. Not scientific, sure, but if you go outside and see six blue bins on your street, it's enough to assume that the recycling hasn't been picked up for the whole neighborhood, y'know? Kinda goes well with the activist mindset of the left; I can't remember having ever met a registered republican who could be arsed to change registrations to try to pick the DNC candidate for them. Then there's a lot of game theory and social psychology behind it as well, it's sort of a self-feeding thing for the first candidate to really break from the gate (which is, at least in GOP terms, usually not Iowa/New Hampshire necessarily), people are worried that prolonged primaries will ruin things, etc, so they just knuckle under on it.
  15. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Premium Member

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    What are you referring to? My choice all along was Romney. He was the best we had out of a motley crew. If he would have manned up and gone after Obama on Benghazi in the second debate, who knows what the outcome would have been? He wouldn't have finished worse than second, right?
  16. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    To the "if the leftists think a candidate sucks that means they're really great." It was spouted about literally every candidate in the primary last year.

    At some point it's time to stop worrying what the other side is thinking or saying and make a stand on ideology. This is something parties have a really hard time doing, though.
  17. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    I'm sorry, this is just not true. He made deals because, unlike today, in the '80s, there was at least still a general if misguided assumption that the Democrat Party's word on anything, meant anything. At the time, a reasonable person might actually have trusted Tip O'Neill about how much spending we'd get cut vs. taxes increased. Might have trusted that amnesty was a one shot deal and that we would have this problem behind us because the border would be air tight after that. Reagan wasn't a great compromiser, Reagan was lied to, basically. Reagan was the "fool me once, shame on you".

    Rubio and Ryan are the "fool me twice" guys. Were Reagan around and able to participate today, I think Reagan would be facepalming that guys like Rubio didn't learn from his mistake, and that, forget Tip O'Neill, trusting Chuck Schumer has to be one of the shut-the-front-door stupidest thing any Republican could ever do.
  18. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Since when has FL even mattered in the GOP primary? Besides, the idea that there are droves of Democrats changing registrations to gum up the works of the GOP primary process in numbers to be a significant factor is a bit far-fetched.
  19. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Yeah, when he backed down on Benghazi after Crowley openly picked a side in the debate, that right there was probably a few hundred thousand more "hold your nose" McCain voters that said "eff this".
  20. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    This seems like part of the problem. No more deals with the opposition (i.e. governance), just my way or the highway because liberals cant be trusted. "Governance" has become basically a liberal rope a dope for duping conservatives into doing unconservative things.

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