America’s curiously selective moral calculus vis-à-vis Israel

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by dadx4, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. dadx4
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    dadx4 Well-Known Member

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    Read this.

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/06/hamas-now-preventing-its-own-people.html#.U9G2JrvD_IU

    Palestinian sources in the Gaza Strip have reported that the Hamas government in the coastal region prevented Mahmoud Zahar, one of the political leaders of Hamas, from travelling, as he and a delegation he heads were trying to cross into Egypt on their way to Lebanon and Iran.

    The sources said that Zahar, and 22 Hamas officials, were stopped by the Palestinian Security Forces of Hamas at the Palestinian side of the Rafah Border terminal between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, the Radio Bethlehem 2000 have reported.

    Zahar wanted to visit Iran to congratulate the new president-elect, Hasan Rohani.

    Last week, the Political Bureau of the Hamas movement issued a statement “demanding the Lebanon-based Hezbollah party to withdraw its fighters from Syria”.

    Zahar said that the statement was not issued by the Hamas movement in Gaza, and added that the Hamas leadership in exile, led by Khaled Mashal, was behind it.This is so great on so many levels.
  2. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Moderator

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    It's inconceivable to me that anybody would live over there and not have an evacuation plan. Maybe some would be the die-hard invasion party types, but everybody over there has to know the volatility of the situation, right?

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  3. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    They aren't allowed to leave Gaza (the Israel border crossing is locked down tight as can be obviously, Israel has had them under a sea blockade for years, and they're having to have other countries beg Egypt to open the Rafah crossing just for medical evacuations).

    That's sort of my question: you literally can't leave Gaza, it's slightly smaller in land area than Philadelphia, and has been hit with 3400 airstrikes in the past two weeks (what works out to better than 24 airstrikes per square mile), it's not terribly clear where you are supposed to evacuate to.
  4. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    The only reason civilians in Gaza are getting killed is because they're too stubborn to get out of the way of the bombs. Sure they act upset when their children are killed, but it's just an act. They obviously wanted their children to be killed, or else they would have been someone else when the bomb hit. Common sense.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
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  5. WESGATORS
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    So what you are saying is that nobody likes the Palestinians enough to offer military support against the Israelis, and nobody likes the Palestinians enough to help them leave their land? Wouldn't that be a big red flag that the bad guys have taken over already? Hell, I would be rooting for Israel at that point.

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  6. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Rafah has always been really, really tightly controlled (Israel put a bunch of conditions on use of it when they left the Gaza Strip the last time), then Egypt closed the Rafah crossing permanently after they overthrew Morsi. Hamas is the successor organization to the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, and following the violence surrounding the ouster of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood presidency (when Egypt outlawed the group) they got nervous about having a border crossing with an area controlled by a loosely affiliated group and how that might effect domestic politics and shut it completely. The only two border crossings from Gaza are with Egypt and Israel.

    The only other option would be by sea, and Israel has had them under a sea blockade for a number of years and attacks anyone attempting to break it (you may remember the "Freedom Flotilla" raid a few years back that left a number of Turkish volunteers dead and took Turkey from being one of Israel's stronger allies in the region to the openly hostile verbal relationship they have now). Gaza used to have an airport, but Israel closed it when they left and has forbade Gaza from attempting to reopen it.

    So no, I don't think the fact that Israel controls two of the potential exits, and the other is kept closed by a combination of somewhat toxic domestic politics and fear of how Israel will react if they open it, really provides some reason to cheer for Israel.

    When the two ways to get people out of Gaza are 1) declare war on Israel yourself or 2) try to cause another coup in Egypt, I don't think it's terribly surprising that no one can really do anything about it. Heck, it's one of the primary causes of the Gazan hostility towards Israel in the first place - that's why Hamas keeps including allow construction of an international airport in Gaza, lift the sea blockade, provide a method of passage from Gaza to the West Bank, and reopen the Rafah Crossing in their list of ceasefire demands.
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  7. WESGATORS
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    So where is the support from the other nations in the region? Keep in mind that every nation that takes no action is effectively supporting the action of the stronger entity in the dispute.

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  8. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    No other nation shares a border with Gaza, it doesn't have an airport, and they're blockaded by sea.

    What do you want the other nations in the region to do to be able to get people out of Gaza? There's not really a way to do so short of invading either Israel or Egypt to try to open a route.
  9. WESGATORS
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    I know the geographical layout of Gaza. What I'm saying is that the lack of support from other nations in this dispute with Israel is very telling as to what people think of the plight of the Palestinians. When other nations choose not to take action against Israel for picking on little ol' Gaza that should be an eye-opener to the folks of Gaza about what the world thinks about how they manage their business. The change needs to come from within. Again, this isn't about what the Americans believe based on American media, but what is the rest of the world doing to stand up against mean ol' Israel if what they are doing is wrong? Are they subject to the same biased reporting that we're subject to?

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  10. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    They have. What specific country do you want to know about?

    Earlier you said countries in the region, so I'll give the two regional bodies' reactions:

    The Arab League called for an emergency UN Security Council meeting to address Israeli aggression and called the Israeli shelling of Shejaja a war crime.

    The Gulf Cooperation Council called it a flagrant affront to international law that reflected Israel's rejection of the peace process.
  11. WESGATORS
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    Yeah, that's not action. Russia took action in Ukraine.

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  12. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Somehow I don't think people would have a better view of Palestine if the Arab states went to war with Israel.

    I mean, while they haven't done it in a good long time, it's not like people exactly view the past attempts at it as some vindication of the nobleness of the Palestinian cause...
  13. WESGATORS
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    Lack of interference constitutes approval, especially when you outnumber the opposition by about 50:1 in the region. When you believe somebody is doing something wrong, you don't worry about what the world thinks of your actions...take Israel for example.

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  14. GatorBen
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    Were I the Palestinians, I think I would be happier without the Arab states interfering at this point. Every time they have it just sets the Palestinian movement back by decades and costs them even more land.

    When you're starting to gain ground on the public image front and a Palestinian state (at least in the West Bank) seems closer to being a reality than it has at really any point since 1948, handing Israel back the victim card and international sympathy of "all of our neighbors declared war on us again" certainly isn't going to further that goal.
  15. HallGator
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    Also helpful to take into account Egypt, Syria, and Iraq have their own internal problems right now. Add in Jordan and SA are not known for a lot of direct interference in outside matters and that cuts down the number of countries who may be willing to help.
  16. WESGATORS
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    And what would you think about Hamas and how much they are setting back the Palestinian movement?

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  17. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Yikes.
  18. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I'd venture to say that Palestinian sympathy is at an all time high in the West, even if its in spite of Hamas.
  19. WESGATORS
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    Right, people sympathize with children getting hurt no matter how responsible the actions of their parents are. That happens everywhere. With more media coverage, there is more sympathy, but that doesn't address the question.

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  20. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Well, at least in terms of sympathy for Palestinians and bad PR for Israel, I don't think you could argue that Hamas has set anything back on that front, especially since the prevailing notion is that a 2 state solution is at this point, unrealistic. So, its a PR war more than anything, right? No one cares about the Palestinians when there is no shooting, and the only time people do is when they are being killed by Israelis.

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