America’s curiously selective moral calculus vis-à-vis Israel

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by dadx4, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. dadx4
    Offline

    dadx4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    30,156
    Likes Received:
    706
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Gainesville, Fl
    Ratings Received:
    +2,069
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Column...ective-moral-calculus-vis-à-vis-Israel-368391


    In most such cases, the US does not even acknowledge its responsibility for its own lethal drone attacks, let alone issue an apology. [​IMG]
    Gaza terror tunnel. Photo: IDF SPOKESMAN'S OFFICE
    With a predictability that is rapidly becoming mind-numbing monotony, various US officials from the president on down have been stressing the need for Israel to exercise restraint in its counter- terror operation in Gaza so as to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties.

    In addition to President Barack Obama, this concern has been voiced in recent days in one form or another by none other than US Secretary of State John Kerry, US Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro, as well as the spokesmen for the State Department and the White House.

    And just in case we didn’t get the message the fourth or fifth time it was delivered in public, both the president and the secretary of state are said to have repeated it in private telephone conversations with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.
  2. wgbgator
    Offline

    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    23,880
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Ratings Received:
    +2,177
    Welcome to the hypocrisy that is often US foreign policy, and its not just in regard to Israel. We havent yet apologized to Iran for the Vincennes incident either, yet we want accountability from Putin possibly shooting down a plane.
  3. OklahomaGator
    Offline

    OklahomaGator Moderator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    36,475
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Miami, OK
    Ratings Received:
    +3,284
    From wikipedia

    "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the Loss of lives caused by the incident...".[11] As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an "ex gratia" basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

    Although it wasn't a formal apology it kinda sounds like one to me.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  4. orangeblueorangeblue
    Offline

    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    Messages:
    57,052
    Likes Received:
    595
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,878
    Even if you qualify that as an apology, the point still stands - it took, what, nearly a decade?
  5. OklahomaGator
    Offline

    OklahomaGator Moderator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    36,475
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Miami, OK
    Ratings Received:
    +3,284
    My comment should have said "wasn't a formal apology" I edited it.
  6. orangeblueorangeblue
    Offline

    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    Messages:
    57,052
    Likes Received:
    595
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,878
    No, I assumed as much.
  7. wygator
    Offline

    wygator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,676
    Likes Received:
    319
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +1,116
    One other phrase that gets tossed around is that a country's military response must be "proportional".

    That is nonsense. A proportional response actually becomes a kind of tit for tat and may extend hostilities rather than discourage them. War isn't supposed to be fair.

    A disproportionate response will be more likely to end hostilities sooner and to discourage the aggressor from attacking again.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. g8tr80
    Offline

    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    7,597
    Likes Received:
    200
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +1,119
    ? The Department of Defense and President Reagan both issued an apology the day after the incident. Maybe it took 10 years to come to a $ 61 million dollar settlement?

    These was no excuse for the ship to mistake the A300 for a F-14. In its' defense, the Vncennes was engaged at the time in a running battle with three Iranian gunboats of which it eventually sank two of them. The Captain jumped to the conclusion that this was a set up similiar to the one that killed 37 sailors and almost sank the USS Stark a year earlier.

    The situation in Ukraine is almost exactly the same. Fog of war. The only difference is Putin doesn't seem to want to take any responsibility.
  9. orangeblueorangeblue
    Offline

    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    Messages:
    57,052
    Likes Received:
    595
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,878
  10. fastsix
    Offline

    fastsix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,811
    Likes Received:
    293
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ratings Received:
    +1,321
    If you don't think the U.S. should urge Israel "to exercise restraint in its counter- terror operation in Gaza so as to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties." What do you think our message should be? Should we be encouraging Israel to kill as many civilians as they need to?

    In a general sense, I don't much care about Palestinians or Israelis, but watching the news and seeing some 3 year old who has been torn apart by a bomb doesn't make me feel good regardless of his nationality, religion, or beliefs. I don't think it's unreasonable for my country to at least ask that it occurs as little as possible. Is there someone here who actually supports the unrestrained killing of civilians?
  11. g8tr80
    Offline

    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    7,597
    Likes Received:
    200
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +1,119
    You need to stop using Wikipedia. it has a somewhat skewed view of history.

    From the letter to the Speaker of the House and Senate Majority Leader from President Reagan:

    "Regrettably, in the course of the U.S. response to the Iranian attack, an Iranian civilian airliner was shot down by the VINCENNES, which was firing in self defense at what it believed to be a hostile Iranian military aircraft. We deeply regret the tragic loss of life that occurred. The Defense Department will conduct a full investigation"

    What else do you want him to say?
  12. orangeblueorangeblue
    Offline

    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    Messages:
    57,052
    Likes Received:
    595
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,878
    It was not just Wikipedia and was sourced.

    I don't want him to say anything. He's dead and it's over. But the White House had a specific stance that did not include an apology. That's what we're talking about.
  13. dadx4
    Offline

    dadx4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    30,156
    Likes Received:
    706
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Gainesville, Fl
    Ratings Received:
    +2,069
    Israel tells ALL Palestinians to leave by leaflet and actual phone calls. Hamas puts weapons in homes, schools and hospitals which make them a target. If the Palestinian people would leave as they were warned you wouldn't be seeing 3 year olds hurt. The images you see are released from Hamas and they are suppose to make you feel bad. It's been part of their propaganda for YEARS and it has worked every time for those people that don't think terrorists could be that cruel.
  14. GatorBen
    Offline

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,173
    Likes Received:
    620
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,451
    Gaza has a land area of 139 square miles, and Israel has launched over 3,450 strikes in the 16 days since Operation Protective Edge started.

    That's an average of 24.8 strikes per square mile, or 1.5 strikes per square mile per day. At some point you have to ask where exactly people are supposed to be leaving to when they're warned.
  15. dadx4
    Offline

    dadx4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    30,156
    Likes Received:
    706
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Gainesville, Fl
    Ratings Received:
    +2,069
    They are on the edge of the boarder. You don't really think they are just spreading out in the entire area do you? You need to read up on it, It's called "Operation Protective Edge" for a reason.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. GatorBen
    Offline

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,173
    Likes Received:
    620
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,451
    The thing is less than 7 miles wide at its widest spot, and most of it is less than half that width. How narrow of an edge of the border do you seriously think they're launching airstrikes against?

    In any event, you're not right anyhow. This, from NY Daily News, is from a week (and about 600 additional Palestinian casualties) ago:

    [​IMG]
  17. fastsix
    Offline

    fastsix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,811
    Likes Received:
    293
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ratings Received:
    +1,321
    You sidestepped the question - do you really think it's wrong for the U.S. (or any country) to ask Israel "to exercise restraint in its counter- terror operation in Gaza so as to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties"?
  18. dadx4
    Offline

    dadx4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    30,156
    Likes Received:
    706
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Gainesville, Fl
    Ratings Received:
    +2,069
    Not when the Hamas charter reads that Israel needs to be destroyed.
  19. dadx4
    Offline

    dadx4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    30,156
    Likes Received:
    706
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Gainesville, Fl
    Ratings Received:
    +2,069
    Nice try, they are also targeting with AIR Strikes Hamas leaders. In the GROUND war they even have set up a field hospital JUST FOR THE PALESTINIANS. It's the ground war where they are dropping leaflets and calling them to leave the area. ALSO even with the airstrikes when they were going to hit the Hamas leadership homes they called the house and told them to leave.
  20. GatorBen
    Offline

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,173
    Likes Received:
    620
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,451
    I've been talking about the airstrikes all along, sorry if you didn't follow.

    There have been 3,450 of them. That's like 25 per square mile. In one of the most densely populated areas on earth. One with all of its borders closed so tightly that it's been called effectively a giant prison.

    Where are people supposed to leave to when they get warned?

Share This Page