A quick note about “reaching for your waistband while black”

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by akaijenkins1, Jul 26, 2013.

  1. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    Found this article about a shooting of an unarmed man shot by a cop in St. Louis for "reaching in his waistband."

    The cop shooting in St. Louis wasn't the most interesting part, we see that often enough. The guy who ran, it turns out, had a warrant for a prior and did not want to be arrested, hence his fleeing. The shooting... well, the article posits some interesting theories on the situation black men find themselves in when others encounter them, a reflex to assume danger. Not surprised the guy was unarmed, not surprised the officer assumed he was armed; not surprised he was shot once the officer assumed he was. These things always remind me of the Diallo shooting, where the cops mistake the guy for someone else, rush him, and then when he goes to hand over his wallet because he thinks the plainclothes cops are robbing him, they assume he's reaching for a gun and off the guy. SMDH

    Some of the research used in the article was terrific, particularly this part:

    Reading that last part, I come back to the officers' initial response to Antonio Morrison's woofing incident caught on the dash-cam, a very swift, physical subduing to an innocuous transgression.

    And I'll just leave it at that.
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  2. candymanfromgc
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    candymanfromgc Well-Known Member

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    Don't most of them have to stoop over to reach their waistband? Geez-at least to their knees.
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  3. LittleBlueLW
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    LittleBlueLW Well-Known Member

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    Known criminal runs from cop and .....

    1)quit committing crimes
    2)dont run from cops while you have a warrant for your arrest.

    Problem solved
  4. candymanfromgc
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    candymanfromgc Well-Known Member

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    If they run they may trip on their pants that are down around their knees.
  5. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    I do not remember the exact statue...but once a suspect flees cops are allowed to 1. Assume guilt 2. Assume danger

    In the op the deceased first ran and then instead of stopping with hands in the air ( lime we all know to do from the age of 5) he reaches for his waistband.

    I do not like most cops. But I can see that in their line of work facing some of the things they do....if my choice is to decide between the perp having a gun or reaching for his waistband...I want to be sure I am the one going home at night.

    And his color would have no bearing on that decision or reaction.
  6. oaklandroadie
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    oaklandroadie Well-Known Member

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    I think the statistics don't show that whites are more criminal, just that cops are more effective at profiling which whites are criminal. Ohhh, and they are horrible at profiling blacks so they just stop them all.
  7. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    My take.
    Too many regular beat cops are
    1. Low iq
    2. Macho wannabes
    3. On a powertrip
    4. Feel that since they "are the law" they make the law.

    Most detective and upper brass I know are much much better. Sure there are stil complete dicks even high up...but not near as many as are walking the streets.
  8. jimgata
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    jimgata Premium Member

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    Didn't most of the higher ups start as lower ups?
  9. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Akai - I think part of the issue with Stop and Frisk (which I am absolutely against) is that the police are probably stopping a much higher percentage of the black persons they see than they are the white ones (i.e., are a lot more likely to be stopping persons who aren't actually suspicious because they are young black males, while the white people stopped are more likely to actually be suspicious).

    The raw numbers would seem to bear that out. From NYCLU, of the people stopped in 2012:
    284,229 were black (55 percent).
    165,140 were Latino (32 percent).
    50,366 were white (10 percent).
  10. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    Great, great point Ben and something I've seen mentioned elsewhere.

    Have a buddy who lives in NY and is big in the fashion world, young black dude, makes a lot of money and runs in that one percent, Tom Ford/high fashion crowd in Manhattan but lives in Brooklyn. When he got stopped and frisked it sort of rocked him, just purely indiscriminate the practice there.
  11. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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  12. HallGator
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    I could see how that would change your perspective on things. Stop and frisk for no other reason than to stop and frisk is BS in my book.
  13. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    Tassel, I'm with you. The danger to me is in what constitutes reaching for a waistband? The recent gas station shooting is more tragic than this incident or, honestly, even the Martin/Zimmerman case where the gentleman at the gas station opened fire on the kids playing their music too loud because he essentially thought they were reaching in their waistband.

    Someone posted a crass joke earlier in the thread but it's true, if the cops are after you and your pants are falling, statistically it's best to let them fall down if you're a young black male, right Candy? :angel:

    As far as the original source material, I love that you get to the end and it states clearly that the issue has on balance less to do with racism and more with an evolution of American culture. As someone who grew up dirt poor and black, I identify along class issues just as much as I do racial ones. Growing up, the Cosby's were great and everything but that had nothing to do with me, couldn't relate to them at all. Made more sense to me in high school to read GRAPES OF WRATH.
  14. Gator515151
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    Gator515151 Well-Known Member

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    What kind of a publication is that where the reporter would write that the suspect was shot once in the ass and once in the leg?
  15. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    I understand. And thanks for keeping this civil and a discussion. Too many on both sides loom to figjt instead of discuss.
    I do not know what the answer is. It cannot be one sided. It won't work. It cannot be cops must wait until a wez pon is drawn. Afew cops die...and then it becomes all out war. At the same time I feel lime cops get every benefit of the doubt. Even when proven in a wrongful shooting. And I feel they take advantage of that benefit of doubt.

    I will say that the rap/gangster culture adopted by so many does not help. When one sees and hears a young black man dressed lime a thug listening to music promoting being a thug...well one almost always assumes ...thug. of course the same can be side for when a white guy does that too. Or when a white guy dress like white trash, talks lime white trsh...we assume...white trash.
  16. squigator
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    squigator Premium Member

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    Would your buddy be less safe in Brooklyn without stop and frisk?

    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...to-see-its-value-see-how-crime-rose-elsewhere

    "One purpose of stop and frisk is to deter criminals from carrying guns, in order to minimize spur-of-the-moment shootings. That deterrence has taken place. Street gangs now keep “community guns” in communal locations rather than on their person, to avoid a gun possession arrest if they are stopped. The city’s astounding homicide drop — 82 percent from 1990 to 2009 — is driven by a decline in gun crime, which disproportionately affects black males. In 2011, guns were used in 61 percent of all homicides, but 86 percent of black males between the ages of 16 and 21 killed that year died from gunfire, according to N.Y.P.D. data.

    Being stopped when you are innocent is an infuriating, humiliating experience. New York’s officers need to better http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/images/newsmilies/no.gifexplain to stop subjects why they were accosted. And if a more powerful method of deterring crime is developed, the N.Y.P.D. should and would adopt it. But for now, New York’s most vulnerable residents enjoy a freedom from assault unknown in any other big city, thanks to the N.Y.P.D.’s assertive style of policing."
  17. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    I will say this...it is no worse than me stopped and checked at every sngle airport in america because I happen to be dark complected, have facial hair and fly alone. I get stopped and "frisked" all the time. And if I complain...do you know what those people do to you? Arghhhhhh


    But that does not make it right for any of us.

    And while it may make us a little safer at what point do we drw the line. When do we say we will not give up any more of our personal freedoms in return for our safety. We could all live like hampsters in a cell being fed all day. And probably live long long lives. It would be safer but it wold not be living.
  18. Gator515151
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    Gator515151 Well-Known Member

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    My personal belief is that the mistreatment of young black men by law enforcement is somewhat exagerated. I heard Obama speak about being searched on a routine traffic stop when he was in college.

    I raised 3 white sons and all of them can tell similar stories, especially my middle son who used to have a habit of dressing like a thug. If you are under 21 and out late at night you are going to be searched if you are acting the least bit suspicious whether you are black or white. If you are white though you can't go crying about your civil rights, nobody will listen.
  19. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    I don't think nearly as many people who are subject to these kinds of searches "cry about their civil rights" as the media makes it out to be. I would also posit that the NRA, a largely white organization, is crying about their civil rights (as is their right).

    However, if the NYPD applied the same practices in Manhattan as they did in Brooklyn, both above and below 42nd, you'd have a hell a of a lot of non-black folks complaining about their civil rights (you'd also have a hell of a lot more busts for cocaine, ex', and illegally obtained prescription meds). The stats cited on the main page prove, at least within NYC, that the phenomenon is not exaggerated at least within that municipality. Hell, there was even an article in the NYTimes recently interviewing the hip and cultural elite about their open and celebrated use of the designer drug "Molly." A poster rightfully pointed out that the result of stop and frisk has been a decrease in gun violence in the areas the tactic is employed. That's great. The data also states that stop and frisk works at an even higher rate when employed in non-black communities in NY... so why not escalate the practice in non-black communities in NY? Someone posited that it works at a higher rate because the cops are targeting whites who are more likely to be criminals. That's an extremely dangerous rationalization of those results, because it either says it's easy to tell which white people are criminals but all black people, like my buddy in fashion, are likely to be criminals or simply look like one? More likely, however, is that the practice of stop and frisk is effective at netting criminals and discouraging crime regardless of race... and that there are non-black criminals who would be discovered via stop and frisk that aren't... and a disproportionate number of black folks who aren't criminals but being treated as such under this policy.

    It's not the practice that's a civil rights violation, it's the decided lack of transparency in its deployment despite data advocating for such transparency. In the face of such data, one has to ask: why 80 of one and only 20 of the other? Clearly it's a perceived difference and the results are not supporting that perception.

    I can't speak to your personal experience but I can speak to mine: me and your son walking down the street wearing the same thing head to toe 7 in the evening, not tipsy (stop and frisks happen at all hours) and the cop has to decide which of us to stop and frisk, I'd put my money on the guy getting frisked being me. I'm not gonna cry Civil Rights about it, though. I'm old enough to know that won't do diddly. And I won't blame you or your son either, that's silly. Hell, I might not even blame the cop. As the article I posted stated in its conclusion, it's not racism as we've come to know it, it's just the way we are right now in this country. Yes, we. How we move past that, past these assumptions and perceptions leading us to drastic actions, is by having more people sharing more thoughts in more spaces like Too Hot.

    That... and it being as hard to move a tab of Molly or a gram of coke in Chelsea as it is in Queens.
  20. dadx4
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    dadx4 Well-Known Member

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    Come on now, you are not allowed to use common sense on Too Hot, the liberals will hammer you for it.

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