12 year old speaks out on abortion

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable people can agree on when a human fetus becomes human. It's the pro-aborts who go all religious-y and consign the status of the unborn to the shadowy realm of metaphysics.

    The mother calls it her "baby" early-on ... unless she doesn't want it.

    Hey, wait a minute, could it be that the status of the unborn is not the real issue ?
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  2. tim85
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    tim85 Well-Known Member

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    Kudos for the reasonable responses on this page, fast, it's nice to see some actual discussion and fleshing out of ideas.

    I do think this is a pertinent and worthy question. At which point exactly, I don't know. I would say, at least in my opinion, as soon as a Dr. can confirm that the woman is pregnant, at this point, it should be considered a human life.
  3. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    A human fetus is recognizable as a human baby by 8 weeks. By that point the spine is already a prominent feature. The developing baby responds to stimulus and pain around week 20.

    http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Fetal-Pain-The-Evidence-Feb-2013.pdf

    (1) Pain receptors (nociceptors) are present throughout the unborn child’s entire body by no later than 20 weeks after fertilization and nerves link these receptors to the brain’s thalamus and subcortical plate by no later than 20 weeks.

    (2) By 8 weeks after fertilization, the unborn child reacts to touch. After 20 weeks, the unborn child reacts to stimuli that would be recognized as painful if applied to an adult human, for example by recoiling.

    (3) In the unborn child, application of such painful stimuli is associated with significant increases in stress hormones known as the stress response.

    (4) Subjection to such painful stimuli is associated with long-term harmful neurodevelopmental effects, such as altered pain sensitivity and, possibly, emotional, behavioral, and learning disabilities later in life.

    (5) For the purposes of surgery on unborn children, fetal anesthesia is routinely administered and is associated with a decrease in stress hormones compared to their level when painful stimuli are applied without such anesthesia.

    (6) The position, asserted by some medical experts, that the unborn child is incapable of experiencing pain until a point later in pregnancy than 20 weeks after fertilization predominately rests on the assumption that the ability to experience pain depends on the cerebral cortex and requires nerve connections between the thalamus and the cortex. However, recent medical research and analysis, especially since 2007, provides strong evidence for the conclusion that a functioning cortex is not necessary to experience pain.

    (7) Substantial evidence indicates that children born missing the bulk of the cerebral cortex, those with hydranencephaly, nevertheless experience pain.

    (8) In adults, stimulation or ablation of the cerebral cortex does not alter pain perception, while stimulation or ablation of the thalamus does.

    (9) Substantial evidence indicates that structures used for pain processing in early development differ from those of adults, using different neural elements available at specific times during development, such as the subcortical plate, to fulfill the role of pain processing.

    (10) The position, asserted by some medical experts, that the unborn child remains in a coma-like sleep state that precludes the unborn child experiencing pain is inconsistent with the documented reaction of unborn children to painful stimuli and with the experience of fetal surgeons who have found it necessary to sedate the unborn child with anesthesia to prevent the unborn child from thrashing about in reaction to invasive surgery.

    (11) Consequently, there is substantial medical evidence that an unborn child is capable of experiencing pain by 20 weeks after fertilization.
    • Informative Informative x 2
  4. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    So then prior to 8 weeks abortions are okay, unless your religious beliefs tell you otherwise. It's not a human (note: a human, it is of course human just like any other human cells are), and it's not even a body. Since this is America and religious beliefs do not set our laws, does everybody agree that abortions should be legal until at least 8 weeks?
  5. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    But at 8 weeks, there are no discernible organs such as lungs, and a fetus at 8 weeks is wholly dependent upon the mother for survival. Is that a human life?
  6. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    At 88 years most surviving human beings are dependent upon others for support.

    Kill them.
  7. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    az-it is a life that you are so readily and willing to allow to be thrown away
  8. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    Btw...a fetus feeling pain at 20 weeks is not necessarily true, although it is the study that the anti-abortionists like to reference. This paper did a review of all the "human studies related to fetal pain anesthesia, and analgesia" and came to the conclusion that "a functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. "

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

    Context Proposed federal legislation would require physicians to inform women seeking abortions at 20 or more weeks after fertilization that the fetus feels pain and to offer anesthesia administered directly to the fetus. This article examines whether a fetus feels pain and if so, whether safe and effective techniques exist for providing direct fetal anesthesia or analgesia in the context of therapeutic procedures or abortion.

    Evidence Acquisition Systematic search of PubMed for English-language articles focusing on human studies related to fetal pain, anesthesia, and analgesia. Included articles studied fetuses of less than 30 weeks’ gestational age or specifically addressed fetal pain perception or nociception. Articles were reviewed for additional references. The search was performed without date limitations and was current as of June 6, 2005.

    Evidence Synthesis Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks.
  9. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    like I said you pro abortionists are okay with the killing of an unborn child and we are not
  10. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    “A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembered, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (provided he has donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.

    Perhaps you think that the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter's potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every cell in your body is a potential human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Every time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings. ”
    --Sam Harris
  11. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Ah, it's the amount of cells you have that make you special!

    I'll give Sam Harris credit. He is a dumbass. But at least he's a bitter dumbass.
  12. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    If that were the case then we'd never harvest organs from a brain dead person.
  13. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    Legality is not an issue for me. At any stage I find the procedure immoral and repugnant. As abhorrent as it is, my politically libertarian convictions allow for it to remain a legal alternative for people who feel the need or pressure to obtain one. The consequences of their irresponsible behaviors should remain on the heads and hearts of the women/girls who find themselves "burdened" with an unwanted pregnancy and the abortionists who perform the abortions.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. AzCatFan
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    I bolded others, because there is a distinguishing factor between being dependent on others, and being dependent on a single individual. If you were responsible for taking care of a 88-year old and felt the burden to be too difficult to bear, you could easily make arrangements for the senior to be taken care of. If you are 2 months pregnant and fee the burden too difficult to bear, what choices do you have? I'd certainly prefer the woman carry to term, but others feel, understandably so, it's too late and she's now a walking incubator with no options.

    The problem with that, of course, is what can we do if the woman is still hell bent on getting an abortion? I still say comprehensive sex education is the biggest step we can take. Eliminate the demand for abortion. But again, the sex education in many parts of our country still lacks.
  15. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    Okay. The number of weeks is irrelevant to me and does not change how I personally view abortion.
  16. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    Killing an umborn child is immoral PERIOD
  17. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    It is important to me though. If a fetus has reached the point that it can feel pain, I don't think an abortion should be allowed. I really don't have an issue with restricting abortions to 20 weeks or less, but I'm also not so naive to think there aren't people who will lie about when a fetus can feel pain in order to advance their anti-abortion agenda. If abortion should not be allowed to occur once the fetus is capable of feeling pain, then we need to be honest about when that occurs. We shouldn't fudge the number one way or another to advance our own agendas.

    I'm also not so naive that I don't realize many pushing to limit abortions based on milestones such as feeling pain, or formation of a body are just using those to elicit sympathy in those they are trying to convince, when ultimately they believe any abortion, even one during the first week, is murder.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  18. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Since there's such a thing as "brain death", perhaps the line should be when the brain has developed since that's what controls the heart, nerves, etc?
  19. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Adoption ? Not killing your offspring ? Asking for help ? Not assuming that teaching kids about plumbing is going to prevent them from making choices which are fatal for at least one human being, possibly two ?
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  20. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    Not only on the website linked below - but others also - I have read that 20 week developing babies have been observed sucking their thumbs. Thumb sucking is a self pacifying / self comforting act that evinces the baby's need for comfort and the initiative and rudimentary dexterity to obtain that comfort.

    http://www.beginbeforebirth.org/in-the-womb/fetal-development

    http://www.beginbeforebirth.org/find-out-more/about-us

    • Agree Agree x 1

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