11.500.500 words

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    that is how many words are in the regulations for the obamacare bill- holy geehosafats

    from the article

    That means unelected federal officials have now written 30 words of regulations for each word in the law.

    What is commonly known as the Obamacare law includes both the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) and the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act (HCERA). Since these bills were signed into law by President Barack Obama in March 2010, various agencies in the administration have published 109 final regulations spelling out how they are to be implemented.

    These 109 final regulations account for a combined 10,535 pages in the Federal Register, where the government officially published them.

    - See more at: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...macare-regs-30x-long-law#sthash.IiDFDa50.dpuf


    as Quik Draw McGraw would say_ Ree dik uh luss
  2. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    What is it about word and page counts that so vex repugs?

    Is it some kind of high school flashback to being assigned War and Peace for a book report?
  3. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    They should worry you shab- these are not written by out Congressional Reps and Senators- these are being written by every day lay people in individual departments of the guvment and they become law
  4. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Congrats, y'all are figuring out how administrative agencies work finally?

    This isn't unusual or something peculiar about or particular to the ACA.

    By way of example? The Clean Air Act was originally signed in 1963. Including all of the amendments to date, it's about 465 pages long.

    Over the time period from 2005 until 2010, the EPA Office of Air and Radiation (whose primary responsibility is the Clean Air Act) published 547 separate administrator-signed final rules.
  5. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    That's how laws always work.
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  6. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    I would be much more worried if the idiots in Congress were trying to work out the minute details of tax administration, or health insurance regulation, or any of the other technical things agencies do.

    The entire point of administrative agencies is that Congress isn't full of substantive experts about much of anything, much less the minutiae and details of exceedingly complex industries. Setting a broad framework and then letting subject matter experts who deal with that specific area of minutiae for a living, with notice and comment input from the people actually affected, work out the details makes immensely more sense.
  7. GatorFanCF
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    GatorFanCF Premium Member

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    Posted above: "Setting a broad framework and then letting subject matter experts who deal with that specific area of minutiae for a living, with notice and comment input from the people actually affected, work out the details makes immensely more sense"

    Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=274545#ixzz2hkEDSyNS

    Yes, it makes more sense theoretically; but, it's not how things get done. The purveryors of pontification (politicians) get a law passed and then whomever is in charge of an agency ($$$$$) TELLS THE FOLKS WORKING IN THE AGENCY how things are to run. "Subject matter experts" sounds wonderful; but the truth is they do what their bosses tell them to do.

    An obvious example would be the appointments of ambassadors. "Subject matter experts" HAH! - yeah, we appoint people who don't speak the language of the country, who don't know squat about the country but who helped raise a lot of money for the President (both Dem and Pub). Another: I bet those IRS managers were expertly trained and knowledgeable (SME) in tax law and that's what led them to delay and put obstacles in approval primarily to Right leaning groups. Yeah, right - folks generally do what the boss instructs them to do. If you think it's any different with a whole new agency that those in charge get to create from scratch you live in a fairy-tale world.
  8. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Ambassadors don't have rule making authority, so awful example there but I understand your point.

    Aspects of rule making certainly are policy judgments (and to be honest the ability to appoint policy level personnel is probably the biggest impact of a presidential election, it clearly matters and you have to look no further than the different priorities pursued by agencies across administrations) but the vast majority of regs are technical things that Congress would never be able to craft.

    Regulatory capture by industries is certainly a real concern, but the alternative is basically to have the technical aspects of the law drafted entirely by industry lobbyists if you try to do it statutorily since neither Congress nor congressional staff has an in depth knowledge of really anything they legislate about.
  9. GatorFanCF
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    GatorFanCF Premium Member

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    Ben: that's a reasoned response. Thanks.

    SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) gave us the 2008 Financial Crisis; and, FYI, there's been no significant change in the Financial world either save for the fact that Bernanke has effectively said "we cannot allow the big banks to fail..." Yeah, that's going to lessen the chances of problems moving forward....:no:

    What's the point? There are too many rules, and too many people creating even more rules that are not helping the country at all. Simply passing a law does not make an insufferable problem go away AND often it makes the problem more intractable. As an example, the "problem" of employer-based health coverage was a direct result of a law passed by FDR that prohibited employers from giving raises (wanting to hold down inflation). Employers are creative and they came up with offering "free" benefits in lieu of higher compensation and Voila! the system of health insurance tied to your job was created. One law passed - probably by SME - another problem created.
  10. tim85
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    tim85 Well-Known Member

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    Because people need to be able to read and understand these things, Fred.
  11. GatorFanCF
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    "Insincerity is the enemy of clear language." George Orwell
  12. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Since when is it legal for agencies to write regulations that act like fines and dictate money spent and money uses that cost all Americans.

    These regulations act exactly like laws, and deal with taxes which is the sole domain of the congress. Only the congress has the power to tax and write laws/regulations that effect the taxes of all the American citizenry.

    I smell a Constitutional defeat for Obama-scam/tax, and all of all these BS pages, coming real soon.
  13. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    So cons can't read something unless it's at a children's book level?

    Sad.
  14. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    Geez louise shab- grow the eff up and stop your petulant nonsense

    You have never even remotely made an attempt to read what was in the 2700 page bill or the 10,000 page book of regulations on the bill- so get off your high horse
  15. tim85
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    tim85 Well-Known Member

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    Have you completely abandoned all interest in actual debate? No one is asking for it to be a children's book, but someone would have to dedicate years of their life to be able to read and understand this thing.
  16. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, uh, tax rulemaking definitely isn't going to get the bill held unconstitutional.

    Not sure if you've ever poked around chapter 26 of the Code of Federal Regulations, but to say that it's not exactly an unusual occurrence would be a massive understatement. There are so many IRS rules that they typically aren't even referred to by their CFR cite like any other federal regulation is, there is a whole separate special thing to call them: "Treasury Regulations" or "Treas. Regs.".

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/chapter-I
  17. Gatorrick22
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    Only the congress has the right to write tax laws. Agencies have the right to enforce them, not to write them.
  18. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Well, good luck on your quest to invalidate the entire CFR. Let me know how that works out for you.
  19. diehardgator1
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    diehardgator1 Well-Known Member

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    who said we have to pass the bill to find out whats in it? Three guess and the first two dont count
  20. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    No one did.
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