Green Cars Not So Green After All

[G8trGr8t]

A 2012 comprehensive life-cycle analysis in Journal of Industrial Ecology shows that almost half the lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions from an electric car come from the energy used to produce the car, especially the battery. The mining of lithium, for instance, is a less than green activity. By contrast, the manufacture of a gas-powered car accounts for 17% of its lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions. When an electric car rolls off the production line, it has already been responsible for 30,000 pounds of carbon-dioxide emission. The amount for making a conventional car: 14,000 pounds.

While electric-car owners may cruise around feeling virtuous, they still recharge using electricity overwhelmingly produced with fossil fuels. Thus, the life-cycle analysis shows that for every mile driven, the average electric car indirectly emits about six ounces of carbon-dioxide. This is still a lot better than a similar-size conventional car, which emits about 12 ounces per mile. But remember, the production of the electric car has already resulted in sizeable emissions—the equivalent of 80,000 miles of travel in the vehicle

If a typical electric car is driven 50,000 miles over its lifetime, the huge initial emissions from its manufacture means the car will actually have put more carbon-dioxide in the atmosphere than a similar-size gasoline-powered car driven the same number of miles. Similarly, if the energy used to recharge the electric car comes mostly from coal-fired power plants, it will be responsible for the emission of almost 15 ounces of carbon-dioxide for every one of the 50,000 miles it is driven—three ounces more than a similar gas-powered car.

Even if the electric car is driven for 90,000 miles and the owner stays away from coal-powered electricity, the car will cause just 24% less carbon-dioxide emission than its gas-powered cousin. This is a far cry from "zero emissions." Over its entire lifetime, the electric car will be responsible for 8.7 tons of carbon dioxide less than the average conventional car.

Those 8.7 tons may sound like a considerable amount, but it's not. The current best estimate of the global warming damage of an extra ton of carbon-dioxide is about $5. This means an optimistic assessment of the avoided carbon-dioxide associated with an electric car will allow the owner to spare the world about $44 in climate damage. On the European emissions market, credit for 8.7 tons of carbon-dioxide costs $48.

Yet the U.S. federal government essentially subsidizes electric-car buyers with up to $7,500. In addition, more than $5.5 billion in federal grants and loans go directly to battery and electric-car manufacturers like California-based Fisker Automotive and Tesla Motors TSLA +0.73%. This is a very poor deal for taxpayers.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...MostPopular_US

a green car driven 90k miles results in $48 worth of carbon credit savings yet the US gubmnt gives a $7500 credit for that $48 worth of carbon savings...but we need to cut wh tours and blue angel shows and national park hours.

[tegator80]

Originally Posted by G8trGr8t

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...MostPopular_US

a green car driven 90k miles results in $48 worth of carbon credit savings yet the US gubmnt gives a $7500 credit for that $48 worth of carbon savings...but we need to cut wh tours and blue angel shows.

What is also getting missed in the Green car movement is that batteries are batteries and will eventually need to be replaced. And the new batteries are going to cost BIG bucks, not to mention the disposal of the old ones. Ain't being smart great?

[Row6]

Not a dealer and don't own stock but Mazda is actually producing real results in mpg's for gas and diesel autos by increasing compression ratios, decreasing friction, and using lighter weight high tensile steel in their bodies. "Skyactiv" is the marketing name for these various technologies which appear serious - not game changers but a step in the right direction perhaps.

http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/skyactiv/

[brainstorm]

The diesel rolls out in the Mazda 6 (mid size) in 2014. I would love to have one. My father drove a little "Datsun" diesel pickup when I started college in 1980 and it got great mileage. The body fell apart before the engine.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

A similar problem exists total birth to death energy use with many hybirds.

[Row6]

Originally Posted by brainstorm

The diesel rolls out in the Mazda 6 (mid size) in 2014. I would love to have one. My father drove a little "Datsun" diesel pickup when I started college in 1980 and it got great mileage. The body fell apart before the engine.

The problem with diesel - which I don't understand - is that it has been more expensive than gas for a decade and still not that easy to find. What is up with that?

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by G8trGr8t

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...MostPopular_US

a green car driven 90k miles results in $48 worth of carbon credit savings yet the US gubmnt gives a $7500 credit for that $48 worth of carbon savings...but we need to cut wh tours and blue angel shows and national park hours.

I wonder why Ford (since they don't have to worry about WH retribution for loans that they never received) doesn't advertise this fact to the general public?

[gator1986]

Lol... There's always a problem with this, and there's always a problem with that. It's a catch 22, your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't..

[Row6]

Originally Posted by Gatorrick22

I wonder why Ford (since they don't have to worry about WH retribution for loans that never received) doesn't advertise this fact to the general public?

Ford makes hybrids.

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by Row6

Ford makes hybrids.

I think it's safe to say that more needs to be done about this false narrative that all electric cars are totally green.

[brainstorm]

Originally Posted by Row6

The problem with diesel - which I don't understand - is that it has been more expensive than gas for a decade and still not that easy to find. What is up with that?

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=9&t=5

You can pretty much equalize/improve costs with the better fuel mileage and longer lasting engines.

[Row6]

Originally Posted by brainstorm

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=9&t=5

You can pretty much equalize/improve costs with the better fuel mileage and longer lasting engines.

Thanks for the info.

[gatorpa]

Originally Posted by Row6

The problem with diesel - which I don't understand - is that it has been more expensive than gas for a decade and still not that easy to find. What is up with that?

I was always under the impression that diesel was less refined, I my mind that should mean cheaper, IDK more taxes associated with diesel thus the higher cost comp to reg Gasoline?

[jimgata]

Electric cars have been heralded as the answer since the early
1900's. They are still being heralded as the answer. Will we ever learn?

[Dreamliner]

I rented and drove an Altima hybrid last week. It emitted an acrid, chemical(ly) smell. Anyone know what that might have been ?

[gatorpa]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I rented and drove an Altima hybrid last week. It emitted an acrid, chemical(ly) smell. Anyone know what that might have been ?

Al Gore's breath?

[PIMking]

Ive said it before, that just because you feel you saved the enviroment by buying a hybrid doesn't mean that you didn't do more damage by buying one with all the pollution that was created to mine the nickle and all the other crap it takes into making it.

[gatorpa]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Ive said it before, that just because you feel you saved the enviroment by buying a hybrid doesn't mean that you didn't do more damage by buying one with all the pollution that was created to mine the nickle and all the other crap it takes into making it.

A concept lost on some.

[mastoidbone]

It is cheaper to refine diesel then gas---but there is a bit more in tax and we all know cost has little to do with price right?

[brainstorm]

Gallon for gallon, diesel has more "energy" than gasoline. Which is one reason the MGP is better.