Gator Country

tommyuf21 · 03-04-2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GboroGator

WNIT is no accomplishment, and why do we only have 1 senior for a coach that has been here 6 years?

Like I said before, start over with a new coach, you'll see the young talent in the program bolt.

They'll be 5-26 for the next year or two before a new coach gets them back to where they are now. Maybe, or perhaps we'll get another Peck....

It's amazing how little people know about how women's hoops work and how long it takes to develop consistency in a program that was a dumpster fire after Peck.

tommyuf21 · 03-04-2013, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1

You can't use Peck as a built-in excuse to not hire a high-profile coach. Peck only coached for like 1 season at Purdue, won the national title,and bolted for the WNBA. So she wasn't really familiar with how to build a program.

Please name one high profile coach that would give up what they have to come to Gainesville. Vivian Stringer? Mulkey? UT's new coach?

The answer is none.

**stingbb** · 03-04-2013, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyuf21

Like I said before, start over with a new coach, you'll see the young talent in the program bolt.

They'll be 5-26 for the next year or two before a new coach gets them back to where they are now. Maybe, or perhaps we'll get another Peck....

It's amazing how little people know about how women's hoops work and how long it takes to develop consistency in a program that was a dumpster fire after Peck.

Butler has been here for five seasons now and UF is still a NCAA bubble/NIT type program.

And, if a new coach was hired, you would not see a bunch of kids bolt. You may lose one or two but sitting out for a season is a great deterrent. Plus, it is not like there is a bunch of great talent on the roster right now anyway.

The bottom line is if you can't recruit your home state, it is very difficult to build a winning program. Florida was absolutely loaded with top prospects this year and Butler struck out on all but one. That is not a recipe for success and somehow she will have to pick up her recruiting, especially in state, if she is to survive.

gatorbogey · 03-04-2013, 08:21 PM

you could equally argue we've heard the same complaints every year regardless of the coach. we've made coaching changes = same result. so something else is the issue it would appear. let me take a guess: 1. there's barely enough support in g'ville to fill the o'dome for billy donovan's program - that is nearly top tier and has won 2 nat'l titles. 2. a woman's program that is under-achieving will always be stuck in that rut, given 1 unless something changes in terms of intrinsic support. you could spend millions and millions on a named coach - yet it is doubful #2 will change. but you'll have lost millions in the process. #3 recruits won't come unless we start filling 1/2 the o'dome - won't be able to compete w/ the top programs unless that changes. do you still want to waste millions? 4. no one really cares enough to show up for game but those that don't care enough to show up will chastise the coaching, annually. that is another thing that never changes, apparently.

tommyuf21 · 03-04-2013, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stingbb

Butler has been here for five seasons now and UF is still a NCAA bubble/NIT type program.

And, if a new coach was hired, you would not see a bunch of kids bolt. You may lose one or two but sitting out for a season is a great deterrent. Plus, it is not like there is a bunch of great talent on the roster right now anyway.

The bottom line is if you can't recruit your home state, it is very difficult to build a winning program. Florida was absolutely loaded with top prospects this year and Butler struck out on all but one. That is not a recipe for success and somehow she will have to pick up her recruiting, especially in state, if she is to survive.

She did happen to get the best recruit in the state.

I think she has enough young talent on the roster, especially considering Sidney Moss and the incoming Ronni Williams to start making a move past where they are now. If she can't show any improvement over the next year or two and a better coaching candidate becomes available, I don't think it's out of line to explore that.

However, changing things now will destablilize and very possibly ruin any progress that has been made in recruiting over the past year or two. There is no guarantee that a better coach will replace her. Certainly, someone of Holly Warnick's caliber is not sitting by the phone waiting for Jeremy Foley's phone call. There is no line of interested coaches begging to lead a team in front of a few hundred fans.

This is really the most difficult league to compete in. Success does not come easy and it will only be attained by building a level of consistency. Another change will not do this and even if Butler is eventually dismissed in a year or two, you can bet that we will fall even further behind while this transition takes place.

number1 · 03-05-2013, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyuf21

Please name one high profile coach that would give up what they have to come to Gainesville. Vivian Stringer? Mulkey? UT's new coach?

The answer is none.

How do you know if we never tried? Obviously you aren't going to lure a Geno or Kim Mulkey to Florida because their programs are the elite, but you can lure a coach from other programs like Lisa Stockton at Tulane, Cara Consuegra at UNC-Charlotte, Karl Smesko at Florida Gulf Coast, or even David Six at Hampton. Those are possibly some of the rising stars in the coaching game. Might even be able to lure some good coaches from major programs that may not be elite, but are in the next tier. Should it not work out with Butler, then maybe we can try and hire a coach with some legit experience at building a program. Even Gail Goestenkors might be tempted to come back.

You can't just sit back and say, "Well we aren't going to get anything better so just stick with what we have." That can either work out well and eventually lead us to a winning program, or we could stall out and stay mediocre. Tell me which direction we appear headed for right now. I really do hope she can turn it around, but time is definitely running out for her. I can't see her making it past another season like this.

number1 · 03-05-2013, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyuf21

She did happen to get the best recruit in the state.

I think she has enough young talent on the roster, especially considering Sidney Moss and the incoming Ronni Williams to start making a move past where they are now. If she can't show any improvement over the next year or two and a better coaching candidate becomes available, I don't think it's out of line to explore that.

However, changing things now will destablilize and very possibly ruin any progress that has been made in recruiting over the past year or two. There is no guarantee that a better coach will replace her. Certainly, someone of Holly Warnick's caliber is not sitting by the phone waiting for Jeremy Foley's phone call. There is no line of interested coaches begging to lead a team in front of a few hundred fans.

This is really the most difficult league to compete in. Success does not come easy and it will only be attained by building a level of consistency. Another change will not do this and even if Butler is eventually dismissed in a year or two, you can bet that we will fall even further behind while this transition takes place.

See using the attendance excuse is funny, because obviously fans aren't going to come to the games for a mediocre program. If you win they will eventually start to drum up some support. I am pretty sure Kentucky and South Carolina weren't exactly packing the place a few years ago. Heck, South Carolina still had no one at that game Sunday, but they still managed to have a constant presence in the NCAA tournament. So obviously attendance isn't the issue, it is whether or not players want to play for your coach.

number1 · 03-05-2013, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meagator

Same old responses year after year.
Just copy and paste for next year.
If you make no changes - nothing will change.
This should be unacceptable at UF.

And that is what I am talking about. It seems like some are putting out the idea to stick with the same because we aren't going to do better. I am all for Butler, but if she can't get this thing turned around after 6-7 years, then how can you support not making a change? I can see giving her next year to see how this team does with the supposed talent and experience that we should have coming back, but if we end up with the same result, then what?

tommyuf21 · 03-05-2013, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1

And that is what I am talking about. It seems like some are putting out the idea to stick with the same because we aren't going to do better. I am all for Butler, but if she can't get this thing turned around after 6-7 years, then how can you support not making a change? I can see giving her next year to see how this team does with the supposed talent and experience that we should have coming back, but if we end up with the same result, then what?

The problem here is that you are judging her on the results of this year, with one of the least experienced teams in any top conference.

You are predicting that this program will not improve despite the emergence of some really good young talent and the arrival of arguably the most talented recruit that this program has ever signed.

If you looked at the preseason predictions, this team has done just about what was expected out of it. It has not underachieved. You could make the point that she has done a pretty good job getting some wins out of some really inexperienced players.

Remember, this is the SEC. There are few gimmes and most opponents are Top 25 teams. The team that beat us Thursday night set a school record for wins and could go far in the NCAA tournament and that wasn't UT.

This is a historically bad program, with a few good years mixed in with mediocrity and poor seasons. This program has 3 wins over UT in over 30 years. I think few of you understand that this will take time and starting over every 4-6 years is not the answer. But you can keep throwing darts at the board and hope you get lucky. In women's hoops, that strategy doesn't work. You just remain a bad program.

gatorbogey · 03-05-2013, 07:06 AM

seems that recruiting is on the uptick now. we are getting some top recruits from w/in the state to come to UF. got our first mcD all-american. this, despite a miserable attendance. you up the attendance to 4k-5k, you'll attract even more top recruits - as long as we win. but to win the top recruits over in this state, you have to have both - a winning program or sense that things are improving and the attendance. the fans haven't done their part, you know it, i know it. next time you come to g'ville for a mens game, stay over to take in a women's bb game. that can only help.

tommyuf21 · 03-05-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbogey

seems that recruiting is on the uptick now. we are getting some top recruits from w/in the state to come to UF. got our first mcD all-american. this, despite a miserable attendance. you up the attendance to 4k-5k, you'll attract even more top recruits - as long as we win. but to win the top recruits over in this state, you have to have both - a winning program or sense that things are improving and the attendance. the fans haven't done their part, you know it, i know it. next time you come to g'ville for a mens game, stay over to take in a women's bb game. that can only help.

I believe that last year's recruiting class was ranked 20th overall. Of course, some would think that automatically makes us a Top 20 team.....

gatorbogey · 03-05-2013, 11:48 AM

i would expect that the next 2 years we should be strong contenders; beating some of the titans in the league and NOT dropping games to the olemisses of the conference. and then also make a run in the ncaa's.

let's see how the next 2 years go. we may see that the program 'turns the corner'.

tommyuf21 · 03-05-2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbogey

i would expect that the next 2 years we should be strong contenders; beating some of the titans in the league and NOT dropping games to the olemisses of the conference. and then also make a run in the ncaa's.

let's see how the next 2 years go. we may see that the program 'turns the corner'.

The talent level has definitely improved, they're just all freshman and sophomore. The last group of seniors peaked at last year's performance and considering that they came on board early in Butler's tenure, it wasn't too bad, because of what was left by Peck.

People forget that Peck did a lot of damage to the program, especially with relationships with state high school coaches. She essentially returned the program to where it was before Carol Ross. Now, you take a two year head coach at a A-10 school and charge her with rebuilding, and you have to give her time.

It takes a lot of time to build a really good women's hoops program. With Moss, Williams and the other freshman and sophomores, next year should be much better. There will also be three senior leaders (as opposed to one who had injury problems this season).

It's not unreasonable to expect better results next season and the ones that follow. However, this was a bit of a rebuilding year and should be regarded as such.

ufgator4ever · 03-05-2013, 12:14 PM

Wbball fans: Expecting different results by doing the same thing.

gatorbogey · 03-05-2013, 01:05 PM

we need an injury-free year too. that would be a big help.

GboroGator · 03-05-2013, 01:05 PM

I'll ask again. Why do we only have 1 senior in a program where the coach has been here 6 years? Where did the classes of 4 and 5 years ago disappear to, and why?

jhsgator · 03-05-2013, 01:28 PM

I've been pretty critical of Amanda Butler and I'm not convinced she is a good game day coach based on what I've watched. Given the circumstances I think she should get another 1-2 years to turn things around. I understand given the roster and incoming talent it doesn't really make sense to start over right now and fire her. However, the excuses made for her are getting very old. This a young team with no experience, well who's fault is that? She has been here 6 years. And the attendance excuse doesn't fly either, is FSU who has clearly surpassed us as a program really packing the place for women's basketball? The Butler apologists also point out what a tough conference the SEC is. It is a tough conference but probably nearly as tough as it was in the early 2000's. I simply don't buy the argument that Florida's ceiling is an NCAA tournament berth every 3 years and then the WNIT every other year. This program was significantly better than that under Carol Ross.

gatorbogey · 03-05-2013, 01:56 PM

fsu had better continuity - 16 years.
miami - of all teams w/ about 1/6th the enrollment - out draws the gators in attendance.
ross was here for 12 seasons.
continuity is a key. and building/repairing the in-state recruiting relationships. apparently that is occuring now.

1 senior this season due to some transfers out of the program. lily svete [still on the team], jennifer george, holt, & caldwell were the freshmen 4 seasons ago. sometimes players just to gel w/ the team (happens to the best of them e.g. donovan w/ kadjii, et. al.)

**stingbb** · 03-05-2013, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbogey

seems that recruiting is on the uptick now. we are getting some top recruits from w/in the state to come to UF. got our first mcD all-american. this, despite a miserable attendance. you up the attendance to 4k-5k, you'll attract even more top recruits - as long as we win. but to win the top recruits over in this state, you have to have both - a winning program or sense that things are improving and the attendance. the fans haven't done their part, you know it, i know it. next time you come to g'ville for a mens game, stay over to take in a women's bb game. that can only help.

Recruiting on the uptick? The state of Florida has 8-10 girls ranked among the top 100 in the various rankings this year, and Butler was only able to sign one. Yes, she was a very good sign but if Williams wasn't a legacy recruit, she does not sign with UF.

Butler has never recruited Florida well and has been forced to go into GA and TENN and take kids the Dawgs and Vols don't want. That hasn't worked out real well and now Butler is heavily relying on transfers. We'll see how that pans out and let's hope it's better than the big girl who came in from Okie State this past season.

Finally, to say UF can't find a coach any better is ridiculous. UF would be a very attractive place to coach women's basketball, just like it is for nearly every other sport.

gatorbogey · 03-05-2013, 09:00 PM

have these coaches you talk about lined up to come to UF in the past? were they banging on foley's door wanting to come here when peck was dismissed? i don't recall. tell me, who did?

were they top names or at the level of Amanda?

might be interesting to hear what exactly you all want from amanda [and the program] moving forward....

what do you detractors [and others] want? be specific. what should the concrete achieveable goals for next season and the season after for the program? be reasonable too. what do you want foley to tell amanda in his program evaluation interview w/ the coach. goals for the wins/loss? ranking? conference ranking? goals for post season play? goals in recruiting? anything else? what sort of contingencies would you permit too? [would you tolerate a rash of injuries?]