03-05-2013, 12:00 AM
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#1
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,201
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Should we require students to recite the pledge in high school classrooms?
The pledge of allegiance to Mexico that is. Here's a story of a girl filing a lawsuit because of the requirement that was imposed on her:
Link to Valley Morning Star
Crazy that this was an actual assignment. That's weird enough, but that the school district supported the teacher in all of this is beyond crazy. Here's a link to the original article from 2011:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011...of-allegiance/
Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS
Last edited by WESGATORS; 03-05-2013 at 12:02 AM.
Reason: removed reference to her being kicked out of classroom as it does not appear in the original article
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03-05-2013, 12:06 AM
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#2
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Heisman Finalist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,700
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Can't believe this is happening. It has long been understood that recitation of the pledge (any pledge) is voluntary.
WAY BACK in 1965 in my 5th grade class, there were two students who were Jehovah's Witnesses. They were forbidden by their religion to say the pledge. They sat quietly while the rest of the class stood and said the pledge. We all knew why they did it. No big deal.
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03-05-2013, 12:23 AM
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#3
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 35,487
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Wonder if I could have passed with my very limited Spanish.
"Caca fuego y salvar a los patidos"
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03-05-2013, 02:34 AM
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#4
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lakeland, Florida USA
Posts: 36,970
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This is unreal. At one time I would not have thought this was possible. But of course now it certainly is.
My Grandfather came from East Prussia in the German Empire in 1891. He was 16 years old at the time. The first thing he did was to find employment and take night classes learning English.
Back in the late 1970s, being a history nut and doing family history. I came across his citizenship certificate. I had the paper treated and placed in a frame. I have had it hung on a wall wherever I have lived since then. His citizenship document is in very beautiful italic script. Of course it's all in English. It has a 42 star US flag on it.
It would take too long to post all of it but here is just a couple of interesting things on it. I used his middle name instead of our last name.
>> United States of America <<
>> Minor's Certificate Of Citizenship <<
>> The State of Ohio, Montgomery County, SS., Probate Court:
BE IT REMEMBERED, That Bernhard Friedrich a native of Prussia, and now a resident of the United States, this day appeared in open Court, and made application to be fully naturalized and to become a citizen of said United States. ....
..... And thereupon, he declared upon oath that it is his bona dude intention to become a citizen of said United States and to renounce forever all allegiance to any foreign Prince, Potentate, State or Sovereignty, whatever, and particularly to The King of Prussia and Emperor of Germany...
.... This 31st day of October, 1896.
Ones W Jones
Probate Judge of Montgomery County, Ohio. <<
....................
As I mentioned, it is a much longer document. It is all in English, not German. Twice he had to renounce all allegiance to the King of Prussia and Emperor of Germany. Twice he had to give his allegiance to the United States and an oaths to support the Constitution.
So if a person at this time, and may be from Mexico, becomes a US citizen, is his citizenship document in English? Or is it in Spanish? My guess is, it's probably in Spanish. Does he twice have to renounce all allegiance to Mexico? I just don't think so. Does he twice give his oath to support the United States and its Constitution? I would hope so.
__________________
Saturday, May 18, 2013. Armed Forces Day U.S.A.
Always thankful for the magnificent Men and Women who have served, and are serving, in the U.S. Military.
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03-05-2013, 06:47 AM
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#5
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Heisman Candidate
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,219
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According to the article, she was given an alternate assignment so it would appear that it wasn't required. The lawsuit isn't about her being forced to recite the Mexican pledge. The claim is that she was failed as retaliation for making the Mexican pledge assignment public. If she really was failed as retaliation then they have a case.
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03-05-2013, 08:47 AM
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#6
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Heisman Finalist
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,282
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The PC police just want to make everyone happy regardless of the results.
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03-05-2013, 10:45 AM
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#7
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kygator
According to the article, she was given an alternate assignment so it would appear that it wasn't required. The lawsuit isn't about her being forced to recite the Mexican pledge. The claim is that she was failed as retaliation for making the Mexican pledge assignment public. If she really was failed as retaliation then they have a case.
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yep. the assignment in the Spanish class was to learn and recite the Mexican pledge. The girl complained and was given an alternative assignment. she wasn't required to recite it.
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03-05-2013, 11:13 AM
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#8
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,201
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When the alternative is clearly more work (an essay on a revolution vs. reciting a pledge and a song?) and not at all related to the nature of the original assignment it's easy to see that it was quite possibly served as punishment. When you offer punishment as an alternative, it makes the original assignment "required." Regardless, why would anybody encourage American students to make a pledge of allegiance to another countries? The purpose of learning a foreign language is to better communicate with one another, not to prepare for being annexed.
River/Ky, would you both be ok with a student being required to write a U.S. history report in lieu of saying the pledge of allegiance for our country? If so, then I will at least concede your consistency. If not, why the inconsistency?
I did find a reference to her not being allowed to return to class (apparently it's in the lawsuit):
Quote:
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Once news of the assignment which required students to recite the pledge of allegiance to Mexico reached the media, Brenda Brinsdon was not allowed to return to the class, according to the federal lawsuit. Each day when time for Spanish class rolled around, the Texas teenager was reportedly made to sit in the school office. She ultimately failed the Spanish class.
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link
If you look at the words to the Mexican Pledge and the National Anthem, it just makes you really scratch your head as to why this was presented to the students as it was. Pretty bizarre stuff; just find it odd that this wasn't bigger news when it happened.
Oh, and if the national allegiance part doesn't get you offended, you're sure to be offended by the reference to God in their Anthem:
Quote:
...by the divine archangel of peace,
For in heaven your eternal destiny
has been written by the hand of God.
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Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS
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03-05-2013, 11:20 AM
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#9
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,165
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Does anyone really figure that there's harm in learning the Mexican pledge in Spanish class?
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03-05-2013, 11:25 AM
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#10
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,201
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It's the hypocrisy that is harmful.
Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS
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03-05-2013, 11:30 AM
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#11
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WESGATORS
It's the hypocrisy that is harmful.
Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS
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hypocrisy, how?
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03-05-2013, 11:39 AM
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#12
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,201
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Two things have been identified here:
First, the school district prohibits compelling students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance for our country...but the district supports compelling students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance for another country
Second, in English, commentary like that which is quoted above are not permitted to be incorporated with the curriculum on account of it being in violation of the separation of church and state. However, if it is in Spanish, then it is perfectly acceptable.
Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS
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03-05-2013, 11:44 AM
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#13
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Heisman Candidate
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivergator
Does anyone really figure that there's harm in learning the Mexican pledge in Spanish class?
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Why would a teacher have her American students, presumably citizens of the USA, pledge allegiance to Mexico?
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03-05-2013, 11:45 AM
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#14
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allanon
Why would a teacher have her American students, presumably citizens of the USA, pledge allegiance to Mexico?
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An exercise in Spanish. Let me ask again: What's the harm?
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03-05-2013, 11:47 AM
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#15
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Inside the War Room, No Name City, FL
Posts: 26,904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivergator
Does anyone really figure that there's harm in learning the Mexican pledge in Spanish class?
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They could have translated our own pledge for a Spanish exercise.
Wouldn't that have been better than reciting a pledge to a foreign country, you know, just for practice ?
__________________
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
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03-05-2013, 11:48 AM
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#16
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Heisman Candidate
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivergator
An exercise in Spanish. Let me ask again: What's the harm?
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Lots of things you can do as an exercise in a foreign language. Why would you make your students pledge their allegiance to a foreign power?
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03-05-2013, 11:48 AM
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#17
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawdog88
They could have translated our own pledge for a Spanish exercise.
Wouldn't that have been better than reciting a pledge to a foreign country, you know, just for practice ?
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you forgot to mention what harm it does. (that was the question.)
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03-05-2013, 11:51 AM
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#18
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,201
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Maybe they're not answering the question because they see it will get ignored.
Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS
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03-05-2013, 11:51 AM
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#19
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Inside the War Room, No Name City, FL
Posts: 26,904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivergator
you forgot to mention what harm it does. (that was the question.)
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To you, anything goes, apparently.
The harm is obvious.
__________________
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
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03-05-2013, 11:54 AM
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#20
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Gator Country Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Inside the War Room, No Name City, FL
Posts: 26,904
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Quote:
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“What we’re trying to do there is show that you can’t compel a student to say a pledge of allegiance,” said attorney Erin Mersino. “She believes that words mean something and that’s why she was having a personal issue with it.”
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But that's only apparent for those who actually think and believe "that words [actually] mean something" in the real world.
__________________
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
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