The Myth of Persecution

[CalSFGator]

Originally Posted by 92gator

Hace falta que te lo tradusco a espanol?

well, you aren't very good at Spanish either, so I am not sure that is helping.

No, why don't you tell me what I am gullible about and have clung to "floating by"?

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by GuyWhiteyCorngood

It would be an interesting poll to see how people rank their perception of "the biggest victims"

Muslims
Jews
Christians
Atheists
Hindus
Buddhists

I think the Hindus and Buddhists at least deserve credit for suffering quietly.

And for not feeling the need to forcably spread their faith to everyone else. IMO, it says they're a lot more secure in their beliefs.

[92gator]

@ CHFG8R:

What of those who choose NOT to latch on to the unknowable?

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2LwktSK6C

"...if the shoe fits..."

If not, don't worry about it.

IOW: if you choose not to latch on to the unknowable, and you don't latch on to any piece of crap floating by...don't worry about it.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by CalSFGator

well, you aren't very good at Spanish either, so I am not sure that is helping.

No, why don't you tell me what I am gullible about and have clung to "floating by"?

The book referenced in the OP is the crap floating by. This is you, being gullible, and latching on to it:

It's not terribly surprising that a religion based on the most uneventful and shallowest martyrdom of all time would have a bit of an exaggerated sense of victimhood

Really? You needed me to spell that out for you?

[CalSFGator]

I am not sure if you are even talking to me, anymore. It's all over the place.

I haven't "latched on" to anything. The Marcan cruxifiction of Jesus seemed to be a true martyrdom, dying for the sins of his fellow man, thinking God had forsaken him. But, by the time Paul and John are done with him, and they have made him essentially God incarnate, it all becomes so absurd. Now, we have a God sending himself (at least his consubstantial essence) to act in his own silly play in which he, of course, knows he is God, cannot truly die in any real sense, and just mucks it up for the cheap seats. It's all divine masturbation at that point.

[CalSFGator]

Originally Posted by 92gator

The book referenced in the OP is the crap floating by. This is you, being gullible, and latching on to it:

Really? You needed me to spell that out for you?

I just need you to make an iota of sense, and if you do spell things out, to get the word order right or reasonably close.

I said nothing about the book, and have no idea what you mean by latching on to it. I have long held my own position that canonical Christianity is done a disservice by taking the true passion out of the crucifixion, and that sort of example on high tends to make its followers melodramatic as well - at least the modern ones, who seem to think an old man greeter at Wal-Mart saying happy holidays is the contemporary equivalent of the underfed lions in the colosseum.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by CalSFGator

I am not sure if you are even talking to me, anymore. It's all over the place.

I haven't "latched on" to anything. The Marcan cruxifiction of Jesus seemed to be a true martyrdom, dying for the sins of his fellow man, thinking God had forsaken him. But, by the time Paul and John are done with him, and they have made him essentially God incarnate, it all becomes so absurd. Now, we have a God sending himself (at least his consubstantial essence) to act in his own silly play in which he, of course, knows he is God, cannot truly die in any real sense, and just mucks it up for the cheap seats. It's all divine masturbation at that point.

It seems you are correct. You are involved in a silliloquy, which for whatever reason, you seem to have decided to post on a message board. The rest of us are talking about the article, in turn about a book, referenced in the OP--which alleged that the early christians manufactured stories of martydom and persecution. You're off on some tangent about the bible.

this little nugget led me to believe you were talking about the book/article:

...a bit of an exaggerated sense of victimhood

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2LwnW46Cg

Now you're talking about the crucifiction, which came before the persecution of the early church, and the basis for the trinity doctrine (and betraying a horrible misunderstanding of the doctrine, to boot).

[CHFG8R]

And entire wars fought to further that point. Granted, it may have been political cover for more base desires, but still. I neverunderstood all the in-fighting and death over what, to an outside observer like me, seems like the fine print.

Does the concept of the Trinity, or not accepting it, lessen the core message in any way?

I don't see how. But, then again, I'm not religious.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by CalSFGator

I just need you to make an iota of sense, and if you do spell things out, to get the word order right or reasonably close.

I said nothing about the book, and have no idea what you mean by latching on to it. I have long held my own position that canonical Christianity is done a disservice by taking the true passion out of the crucifixion, and that sort of example on high tends to make its followers melodramatic as well - at least the modern ones, who seem to think an old man greeter at Wal-Mart saying happy holidays is the contemporary equivalent of the underfed lions in the colosseum.

See above. Silly me for figuring you were discussing the book/article referenced in the OP, on the first page of a thread about it.

[g8trdoc]

This kind of thing reeks of the usual homerism. Gay Judge thinks gays should have the right to marry. Atheist believes Christians not persecuted. All the same kind of thing......

[GuyWhiteyCorngood]

Originally Posted by g8trdoc

This kind of thing reeks of the usual homerism. Gay Judge thinks gays should have the right to marry. Atheist believes Christians not persecuted. All the same kind of thing......

Well, if you're curious about the author...here's her bio page from Notre Dame

Biography
Candida Moss specializes in Biblical studies and early Christian history, she holds an undergraduate degree in Theology from the University of Oxford, a Masters degree in Biblical Studies from Yale Divinity School, and a doctorate in Religious Studies from Yale University. She has published four books and over twenty-five articles and essays on various aspects of Biblical and early Christian literature, history, and thought. An award-winning author, her first book, The Other Christs: Imitating Jesus in Ancient Christian Ideologies of Martyrdom (Oxford, 2010) was awarded the 2011 John Templeton Award for Theological Promise and she has been the recipient of grants and awards from the Woodrow Wilson Foundation, the John Templeton Foundation, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. She currently serves as co-chair of the Healthcare and Disability in the Ancient Near East section of the international and national meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature, co-Chair of the "Inventing Christianity" consultation of the Society of Biblical Literature, and on the steering committee of the "Apostolic Fathers" consultation of the International meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature. She has consulted for, appeared in, and hosted documentaries for the National Geographic Channel, the History Channel, and the Discovery Channel and has lectured nationally and internationally at Yale, Duke, Emory, Columbia, University of Chicago, University of Oxford, University of Durham, Von Humboldt University in Berlin, to name a few. She is currently working on a monograph on the resurrection of the body tentatively entitled "Heavenly Bodies: Resurrecting Perfection in Early Christianity" for Yale University Press and a commentary on Second Century Martyrdom Accounts for the Hermeneia Commentary series.

[92gator]

^^^yep...and the enlightened liberal group-think establishment piles on, lauding the brillaince, the courage, the individuality, the revolutionery originality, blah blah blah....
(nevermind the mounds of evidence to the contrary; what is important, is that this author hath spake well, according to the tenats of liberalism, and got her work published!).

The only real question I have, is...

...WTF is going on at Notre Dame?!?! Vagina Monologues, Manti T'eo, now this?!?!

[JerseyGator01]

I've met some great atheists who are from Ivy League Divinity schools. Her bio tells me all of I need to know about her and her agenda. These are some awfully depressed, angry people who have little intellectual curiosity.

[GuyWhiteyCorngood]

Originally Posted by 92gator

^^^yep...and the enlightened liberal group-think establishment piles on, lauding the brillaince, the courage, the individuality, the revolutionery originality, blah blah blah....
(nevermind the mounds of evidence to the contrary; what is important, is that this author hath spake well, according to the tenats of liberalism, and got her work published!).

The only real question I have, is...

...WTF is going on at Notre Dame?!?! Vagina Monologues, Manti T'eo, now this?!?!

What kind of psychadelic do you have pumping through your veins to make you constantly conflate liberalism with everything you disagree with?

Besides, I think her book is a bit more nuanced than you suspect. Maybe she hates taxes, too.

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by JerseyGator01

I've met some great atheists who are from Ivy League Divinity schools. Her bio tells me all of I need to know about her and her agenda. These are some awfully depressed, angry people who have little intellectual curiosity.

Oh, the irony, the irony!

[g8tr80]

I'm not an expert on victimization, but I think christians are been hacked to death pretty good in parts of Africa, Coptics run out of Egypt, and yet others executed in Pakistan. We are barely tolerated in the holy cities of Bethlehem and Nazareth. I wouldn't say we are all victims, but there certainly is a vocal group that certainly has a hard on for us.

[JerseyGator01]

Of course, then there's that little country called China where Christian churches can't even operate above ground. How many pics of new Christian church buildings in China can someone show me?

Basically, there's not a lot of evidence for much that happened 2,000 years ago, even people like Julius Caesar.

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by g8trdoc

This article alone is proof of persecution. I feel a great sense of honor when I'm persecuted for being a Christian. This is not to say I look forward to it but all the same it makes my faith grow even more.

For what on God's green earth have you been "persecuted" ?

I can recall a couple of times on previous threads when you trumpeted some good deed or two you did. And I recall you complaining about people with cell phones who came for free dental care at a clinic where you wrote you volunteer your services as a dentist. But I don't ever recall you mentioning anytime you have felt "persecuted for being a Christian."

Some Christians in the United States today do exhibit a bit of paranoia about being 'attacked' or 'persecuted.' It's ridiculous. Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and no U.S. Christians are being persecuted for practicing their faith.

It makes more sense to me that someone who has truly been persecuted for his faith would be humbled in his perseverance of same faith, rather than pridefully inflated with self honor for doing so.

[GuyWhiteyCorngood]

Originally Posted by g8tr80

I'm not an expert on victimization, but I think christians are been hacked to death pretty good in parts of Africa, Coptics run out of Egypt, and yet others executed in Pakistan. We are barely tolerated in the holy cities of Bethlehem and Nazareth. I wouldn't say we are all victims, but there certainly is a vocal group that certainly has a hard on for us.

Just for grins, I went to her facebook page. Someone else mentioned Coptic Christians. Her response:

Candida Moss: I discuss about the persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt as an example of real persecution. It's the very first thing in the book. My statement that Christians aren't persecuted pertains to the claims of western politicians and media pundits that Christians are persecuted in America. Honestly, you'd have to read the book to get a real sense of its argument.

Also, saw someone mention that she got a shout out from Desmond Tutu. It's right on the Amazon page for the book:

“Compellingly argued and artfully written, Moss reveals how the popular misconception about martyrdom in the early church still creates real barriers to compassion and dialogue today. An important book and a fascinating read.” (—Archbishop Desmond Tutu )

I'm sure Archbishop Tutu meant to make harsh anti-liberal comment and it just came out funny.

[g8trdoc]

Originally Posted by lacuna

For what on God's green earth have you been "persecuted" ?

I can recall a couple of times on previous threads when you trumpeted some good deed or two you did. And I recall you complaining about people with cell phones who came for free dental care at a clinic where you wrote you volunteer your services as a dentist. But I don't ever recall you mentioning anytime you have felt "persecuted for being a Christian."

Some Christians in the United States today do exhibit a bit of paranoia about being 'attacked' or 'persecuted.' It's ridiculous. Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and no U.S. Christians are being persecuted for practicing their faith.

It makes more sense to me that someone who has truly been persecuted for his faith would be humbled in his perseverance of same faith, rather than pridefully inflated with self honor for doing so.

This is a prime example of a misguided individual that doesn't like Christians or anything they do no matter what the cause. Thank you for posting so I can use as a good example. I am not perfect. Only Jesus was perfect. I am a sinner. Only Jesus was without sin. Now I'll just sit and wait for you to cherry pick a couple of bible versus to defend your misgivings.