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Old 02-24-2013, 03:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Burke View Post
Why should corporations even pay income taxes?

It's just double taxation because stockholders have to pay taxes on their dividends.

Everything is an excuse to take what productive people earn.
Gotta feed the beast man.....
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Matthanuf06 View Post
The problem is that we aren't capitalists, and haven't been for awhile. We live in a country where winners and losers are picked by the government, sometimes on a dramatic scale and sometimes on the margin. That is not capitalism. The fact that corporations play by the required rules set by the government have negative outcomes is not capitalism.
i wouldn't say the winners and losers are picked by the "government", when it is the capitalists that control the government
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:44 PM   #23
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it is WE THE PEOPLE who have failed....capitalism is doing its purpose, which is to make profit, at all costs, and regardless if it goes against the benefit of the country its operating in

we allow our government to be bought and sold to the highest bidder, therefore its what we get
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:25 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Burke
What capitalism?

When have we been a truly capitalist society?

Closest we ever came was the last quarter of the 19th century.

Even then we were no where close to being completely free.

What's failing is statist intervention into what had been something closer to capitalism than any other.

We're just falling back into the rat pack of collectivist thug societies.

That's what's failing.
Ah, yes. The Gilded Age. Those WERE the days....
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 108

i wouldn't say the winners and losers are picked by the "government", when it is the capitalists that control the government
By definition that isn't capitalism.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Matthanuf06 View Post
By definition that isn't capitalism.
the lack of "free trade"?
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:56 PM   #27
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Laissez faire capitalism is an economic system in which the govt stays out of the economy.

Not only does our govt not stay out of the economy, it damn well runs it.

Which is precisely why it is collapsing.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:41 PM   #28
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When currency is monopolized and manipulated it doesn't matter the laws or the economic model used.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Burke View Post
Laissez faire capitalism is an economic system in which the govt stays out of the economy.
other than Gov protecting property rights

which the rest would crumble without

but the thing about "laissez faire" is that business wants no part of it...if so, we would be going more towards it

and thats where i have to laugh about your disdain for Gov in this regard....its the capitalists that control Gov, buying off and putting in elected officials to do their bidding

you blame Gov for all ills, but a central Gov is a capitalists best friend
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:17 PM   #30
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Protecting property rights instead of violating them for some supposed public good IS staying out of the economy.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:24 PM   #31
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Global resources need to be shared not perpetually fought over.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:10 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 108

other than Gov protecting property rights

which the rest would crumble without

but the thing about "laissez faire" is that business wants no part of it...if so, we would be going more towards it

and thats where i have to laugh about your disdain for Gov in this regard....its the capitalists that control Gov, buying off and putting in elected officials to do their bidding

you blame Gov for all ills, but a central Gov is a capitalists best friend
Therefore we are not capitalists. I know you hate the word and the system, but you simply cannot claim that this system is anything remotely close to capitalism.

Whether or not business owners want the government involved, the fact is the government is involved and the system is able to be corrupted. A business owner has zero choice but to play by those rules. If a business owners had naive dreams of capitalism and did not play the current government game that firm would be put out of business. The government would give more breaks and more money to a competitor that did play the game. It's play the game or die.

That is NOT capitalism.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:05 AM   #33
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Govts that involve themselves with businesses, granting some special favors, licenses, grants, etc. are what we call fascist systems.

Which is what we really are now.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:11 AM   #34
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There is no "capitalism" without the state.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by wgbgator
There is no "capitalism" without the state.
The state needs to protect property rights. Nobody is denying that. However capitalism isn't a system like ours that picks winners and losers.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:25 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by wgbgator View Post
There is no "capitalism" without the state.
Dare I ask you logically explain that statement?
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:31 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Matthanuf06 View Post
Therefore we are not capitalists. I know you hate the word and the system, but you simply cannot claim that this system is anything remotely close to capitalism.

Whether or not business owners want the government involved, the fact is the government is involved and the system is able to be corrupted. A business owner has zero choice but to play by those rules. If a business owners had naive dreams of capitalism and did not play the current government game that firm would be put out of business. The government would give more breaks and more money to a competitor that did play the game. It's play the game or die.

That is NOT capitalism.
well then, what you seem to want is anarchism, because capitalism needs the state, and clearly you are not in favor of limiting the "free-speech" of corporations to prevent the Crony Capitalism you despise
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:34 AM   #38
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:49 AM   #39
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Dare I ask you logically explain that statement?

There can be no "capitalism " without the state or something like it. The state protects property, enforces contracts and other things/rights that are essential to capitalism. Its stands to reason also that the people with the most property and the most valuable contracts will use the mechanism of the state to their advantage if they can, usually in a way that protects their own interests and limits competition.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by wgbgator View Post
There can be no "capitalism " without the state or something like it. The state protects property, enforces contracts and other things/rights that are essential to capitalism. Its stands to reason also that the people with the most property and the most valuable contracts will use the mechanism of the state to their advantage if they can, usually in a way that protects their own interests and limits competition.
yes, in fact, it wouldn't be capitalism if it didn't try to take advantage, protect its own interests, and limit competition...

so capitalism is doing nothing wrong in and of itself, that is its nature, and part of human nature

the other part is the the collective

clearly we need both for long term survival as a species

the trick is to properly regulate capitalism so that it doesn't eat itself
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