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Old 02-21-2013, 09:40 AM   #41
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Do we actually own anything in the eyes of nature?
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:46 AM   #42
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Do we actually own anything in the eyes of nature?
In the eyes of nature? No. Ownership is a concept derived from and made possible by civilization, i.e. the parting with nature to form complex societies.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:07 AM   #43
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Nature doesn't have eyes. It's not conscious.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:25 AM   #44
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Nature doesn't have eyes. It's not conscious.
we are nature too, albeit a part of nature that has the ability to make complex choices

ownership is a concept that is protected by the police power of government

without that power, it would come down to survival of the fittest
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:23 PM   #45
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Nature doesn't have eyes. It's not conscious.
Hmmm.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #46
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Actually we're just stewards of what is in our possession. What we do with it & how we've possessed it goes along way in revealing what kind of person we are. But at the end of the day, we take out of this world nothing that we've stored up on earth.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:39 PM   #47
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What about the laws of nature?
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:47 PM   #48
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What about the laws of nature?
What, like scientific laws? I'm assuming you mean natural law though, which is an entirely different concept (and not really connected with "nature" other than in contrast to positive law). So "natural law" is only understood in the context of civilization and man-made law.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:53 PM   #49
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Saying that "nature" is conscious would imply that rocks and trees, etc. are aware, which is nonsense. There are conscious beings, humans and other animals, but they are specific entities, not nature itself.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:54 PM   #50
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What about the force? It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:01 PM   #51
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The only force that surrounds and affects me is govt force, and most of it is exploitative.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
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The only force that surrounds and affects me is govt force, and most of it is exploitative.
Paranoid you are. :yoda voice:
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:33 PM   #53
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Very amused I am.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:41 PM   #54
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The only force that surrounds and affects me is govt force, and most of it is exploitative.
Sometimes I wish gravitational force would leave me alone.

Go GATORS!
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:47 PM   #55
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on a side note, while i think capitalism is the best economic model as a whole, it does cause unnecessary poverty
Capitalism is the reason why there is less poverty today than there has ever been.

Think of the absence of capitalism. Do you contend that poverty could be eliminated by having no trade?

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this world is abundant with resources yet a good bit of it is impoverished with plenty in dire need of basic resources
Humans are better off now than they have ever been in the history of humans. Primarily due to capitalism

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if i was the leader of a country, i would nationalize natural resources for the benefit of the people
Of course you would. From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. Right?
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:02 PM   #56
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Nationalizing resources really has nothing to do with "From each according to his ability." Natural resources are finite, the famous ideal of communism according to Marx was only possible in the future of super-abundance where labor was "not only a means of life, but life's prime want." I'd argue that common natural resources is more in keeping with ancient Anglo-Saxon liberties than Communism - see the Charter of the Forest in 1217 (linked with the Magna Carta).
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:04 PM   #57
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The most effective and absolute guarantee of waste you can find is government control, so all the more reason to have the government controlling fewer, or none, of those natural resources.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:09 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by wgbgator View Post
Nationalizing resources really has nothing to do with "From each according to his ability."
I think you are wrong.

Natural Resources have been around for a long time. The process of utilizing those resources is what creates wealth. Centralized control of resources has been tried and is being tried. Most of the oil resources are owned by various governments. In spite of the vast wealth, the people in those countries are usually not better off than the people in less centralized economies


Quote:
Natural resources are finite
Perhaps.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:12 PM   #59
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Strong person diminishes weak person's ability to access natural resources. Weak person needs a government to help him out. Is this somehow unfair? I realize it doesn't always work this way, but this is the gist of *why* we need a government to help manage the resources. That there are reasons that a government shouldn't act in certain ways is not an excuse to exclude government from the process altogether. And the first sentence is rather generic and comes in many forms including depletion of clean water supply.

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Old 02-21-2013, 04:12 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson View Post
Capitalism is the reason why there is less poverty today than there has ever been.

Think of the absence of capitalism. Do you contend that poverty could be eliminated by having no trade?



Humans are better off now than they have ever been in the history of humans. Primarily due to capitalism



Of course you would. From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. Right?
Good ole Uncle Milt nicely articulates this

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