What's Greed?

[Burke]

"I would say greed (derogatory) doesn't begin until your efforts to accumulate prevent others from accumulating. Say for instance there is a limited natural resource; if you claim it all for yourself, then you are preventing others from accumulating it...that would be greedy."

In a free society, people don't just "claim" natural resources. They buy them. That is, they give the owners something that the owners see as more valuable. The buyers then use those natural resources to create more wealth which they trade to others who are also better off because of that trade.

Basic economics.

Wealth is not "accumulated." It is produced.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

I sort of agree, but what if we agree to order a pizza & split the cost 50/50. You leave the room for a little bit and I take a piece of the pie that puts me over 1/2 of the slices without asking you. Isnt that greedy to take more than what convention says is mine? Is that implied in the social contract of splitting the cost? I didnt prevent you from consuming any pizza, just less than what was "due" to you without your consent.

It's either a violation of the implied contract or it is not. I don't think it's an issue of greed. If you take a piece that I consider to be mine, then that's a misunderstanding of the contract that we had in place (or thought we had in place). I think with food, "gluttony" is the perfect example of greed. You may have a contract in place where the expectation is 1 slice vs. 7 slices, but the person eating 7 slices may be gluttonous (and in this case greedy). Again, not an assault on rights, but an assault on character.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by Burke

In a free society, people don't just "claim" natural resources. They buy them. That is, they give the owners something that the owners see as more valuable.

Who owns natural resources and who did they buy them from? Some things on our planet have value that was not added by people (not to be confused with adding value to existing natural resources).

Originally Posted by Burke

Wealth is not "accumulated." It is produced.

You say this as if they are opposites. Is it your claim that wealth cannot be accumulated?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

It's either a violation of the implied contract or it is not. I don't think it's an issue of greed. If you take a piece that I consider to be mine, then that's a misunderstanding of the contract that we had in place (or thought we had in place). I think with food, "gluttony" is the perfect example of greed. You may have a contract in place where the expectation is 1 slice vs. 7 slices, but the person eating 7 slices may be gluttonous (and in this case greedy). Again, not an assault on rights, but an assault on character.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

But gluttony/greed could drive me to violate the contract, right? In the pizza arrangement there are no "rights," just an informal assumption based on convention. We only agreed to split the cost, not the pie evenly. But convention is that spliting the cost of something evenly implies equal utility. By violating the convention, I could be viewed as greedy.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

But gluttony/greed could drive me to violate the contract, right?

It could, the contract could be violated for any number of reasons. The evaluation of a violation of the contract (and the associated consequences) does not factor in the motivating factor. The motivating factor is a moral issue. The violation of contract is a legal issue. One could be greedy and operate within the constraints of a contract; one could be not greedy and exceed the constraints of the contract.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[WESGATORS]

You could take more than "your fair share" of the pizza and give it secretly to somebody else and I might think you are being greedy while you might think you are doing what is just and equitable. Would I be wrong to consider you greedy?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

You could take more than "your fair share" of the pizza and give it secretly to somebody else and I might think you are being greedy while you might think you are doing what is just and equitable. Would I be wrong to consider you greedy?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

To some, Robin Hood was a thief, to others he was supplying justice.

[busigator96]

greed is planned obscelecence of goods. greed is not just against man, it is ultimately against nature.

[mocgator]

People aren't greedy... it's the other guy that's greedy...

[Burke]

Wes,

Who owns natural resources?

This is really just a challenge to the right of ownership. Or are you asking me to give you the chain of title for every piece of property that is or ever has been owned?

Which is a tad ridiculous.

[Minister_of_Information]

Ownership depends upon dominion and the associated social contract, not the creation of value.

[Burke]

Natural resources are worthless until they are made useful by creative work of some kind. Picking a berry off a bush or dipping a cup into a stream of water are productive acts.

We live by creating values which we need, which we call wealth. The right to use it to live and be happy is known as the right of property.

Who has produced what is the province of a field of endeavor known as the administration of justice.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by Burke

Or are you asking me to give you the chain of title for every piece of property that is or ever has been owned?

Not at all, just looking for acknowledgement that at some point in the chain you have somebody that claimed it or lost it as a result of violence. It's not like we live in a perfectly ordered world where valuables have always been equitably distributed. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration in how we govern ourselves? Or are you more of a "let's just start from here and do things evenly from this point forward" kind of a guy?

At a minimum, would you support somebody trying to swindle a mentally handicapped person out of their money? Might that be greedy? I would imagine that everybody has their limits, yours might just be further down the road than those that you disagree with. But they're there nonetheless.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[Burke]

As a result of violence?

There was a time when men were savages and lived that way. Eventually most learned (somewhat) that they should trade instead. Those who conquered the savages and imposed the rule of law earned the property because they did so.

Violence may have been involved, but they didn't earn the right to the land (or whatever) just because they were violent. They earned it because the created a rights- respecting society.

E.g. The Founders

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by Burke

Natural resources are worthless until they are made useful by creative work of some kind. Picking a berry off a bush or dipping a cup into a stream of water are productive acts.

I respectfully disagree. But then again, I wouldn't call sticking my head in a river to take a drink a "creative work" and certainly not any claim on having "produced wealth." I've merely taken advantage of a valuable resource that already existed. More obvious than water, let's take the air we breathe. Surely you don't consider that "worthless." If I were able to harness it all for my own and charge you for the right to use it, would that just be entrepreneurship on my part? Or might that be considered greedy? After all, why do I deserve to claim the air as my own while depleting your access to free use of it?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by Burke

As a result of violence?

There was a time when men were savages and lived that way. Eventually most learned (somewhat) that they should trade instead. Those who conquered the savages and imposed the rule of law earned the property because they did so.

Violence may have been involved, but they didn't earn the right to the land (or whatever) just because they were violent. They earned it because the created a rights- respecting society.

E.g. The Founders

So conquering a property is acceptable if you have a good plan to implement after renovations are complete?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by Burke

Natural resources are worthless until they are made useful by creative work of some kind. Picking a berry off a bush or dipping a cup into a stream of water are productive acts.

We live by creating values which we need, which we call wealth. The right to use it to live and be happy is known as the right of property.

Who has produced what is the province of a field of endeavor known as the administration of justice.

Property rights depend upon a society capable of sanctioning, administering, and enforcing them. Anything else more fundamental depends only on the preponderance of force.

[108]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

I define greed as the place at which ambition and the profit motive become maladaptive. Like any other human motivation, "want" is neither inherently good or bad but by degree.

this

accumulating wealth in and of itself is not greedy

now how you do it could be considered greedy

[108]

on a side note, while i think capitalism is the best economic model as a whole, it does cause unnecessary poverty

this world is abundant with resources yet a good bit of it is impoverished with plenty in dire need of basic resources

if i was the leader of a country, i would nationalize natural resources for the benefit of the people

[busigator96]

Greed is fine until there is a distortion of priority and an entity unduly imposes on the worlds natural resources and my fellow man in the process.