For serious Bball fans: what was exposed vs. Missou

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by gator34654

No real low post game, young is the closest thing we have but against good D and big men he is a non factor. We continue to choke during really close games especially away from home. It happens so many times I think the guys almost expect to lose. We cannot finish close games when playing away. Final thought, if our outside shots aren't falling where in big big doodoo.

The word choke is not in any real coaches dictionary. There are actual basketball skills or strategy that lead to good or bad things happening. I don't think we have lost these last few close games because of choking.

[ryanhoward812]

I don't post much during bball season but I do follow the team quite close. From what I have seen..and especially last night is rely entirely too much on our guard play and withouth yeguette...Patrick Young isn't consistent enough to get it done on the inside game in and game out. At half Donovan said they need to work the ball more inside out and it looked foreign to our guys. Obviously when you are shooting 50 percent from behind the arc it doesn't become much of an issue but when a team mans up and plays our guards straight up and defends the perimeter we seem a little out of sinc. Last night was the perfect example. All in all I dont thing PY is assertive enough in the post and although he has his moments...he is entirely too inconsistent given his size and experience. Lets face it..we are a guard dominated team without yuegette. Hope fully with him back we won't have to live and die by the three in March

[fljim]

Great post Rick, you have infinitely more knowledge in the game that I will ever have but as a casual observer, KB is not the guy I want firing up 3's at the end of the game.
I want either Murph or Frazier, period. I do not want to see Scotty or Kenny, at least not what they have shown all season. Next I would want to see Mike R., he can hit from anywhere when he is feeling it. The safe bet is Murph or Michael - since Murph was off all night and MFIII was hot (all season); why was he not in the game?
If the answer was Billy wanted senior leadership, it is obvious that Kenny has not shown it in most, if not all the games this year.
Put the best men in, not the most experienced. Thoughts Rick?

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

In our 4 losses we have faced strong on ball pressure that makes Wilbekin work hard at getting free and finding an open man, he is not great at it, he struggles, especially with smaller guards on him, he dribbles around too much and the ball does not move like it should, or like it does when teams neglect to be up in his face, I am afraid, as I was at the beginning of the season that this will be how teams attack us, especially when we have a lead, late. We will be susceptible to this on ball pressure which leads to turnovers and easy baskets. This is also where Erv was so good at drawing fouls and getting to the line and keeping the other teams from making these late runs. i am not sure how we counter it, especially without Will, as Prather is just awful at setting good screens, which was also a big factor last night.

Good Post, remember good on ball pressure and good denial defense usually means less help in the post and on cuts or drives, which is exactly what we need more of when facing teams that have the ability to pressure us on the perimeter. Having four guy's outside the three point line with no low post entry passes and very little cutting won't usually get it done.

[dalwood13]

Pat really struggled with getting and maintaining good post position last night. When he did this successfully, however, we did a poor job of finding him. A lot of the credit for this goes to Missouri's defense.

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

It's simple. In close games we go from all world to an easy out. We play worse. Our FT% declines, TO% increases, ball movement declines, quality of shots decline, defense declines, etc. It is mental as the "technical" reason will vary but the underlying playing worse remains the same.

Mental and technical are not mutually exclusive. If you work on technical enough, mental improves. That's why player's and teams get better.

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by bakaduin

I disagree, Young showed vs Noel that he can score against quality big men. Young has continued to show all year how successful his baby hook is. While he isn't as automatic as Vernon Macklin seemed to be, he is pretty close. I think the problem is what rick addressed and that is getting him the ball. There are plenty of possessions that we don't go inside at all and I can't think of one possession where we went inside a second time after the big passed it back out.

Exactly, also no one is mentioning Murphy as a post up option. I believe he is much better in the post than we give him credit for. Lastly, we don't always have to get a score out of the post for the entry post passes to be effective. Often times the inside out action leads to open shots, fouls on the defense and defending guards thinking more about helping down low and less about who they are guarding.

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by fljim

Great post Rick, you have infinitely more knowledge in the game that I will ever have but as a casual observer, KB is not the guy I want firing up 3's at the end of the game.
I want either Murph or Frazier, period. I do not want to see Scotty or Kenny, at least not what they have shown all season. Next I would want to see Mike R., he can hit from anywhere when he is feeling it. The safe bet is Murph or Michael - since Murph was off all night and MFIII was hot (all season); why was he not in the game?
If the answer was Billy wanted senior leadership, it is obvious that Kenny has not shown it in most, if not all the games this year.
Put the best men in, not the most experienced. Thoughts Rick?

Last night we didn't need a three and I actually think KB does a great job finding a way to score when he PENETRATES and doesn't settle for a three. I can only think this was Billy's thinking by putting the ball in SW's Hands and KB's hands. I just think KB hasn't earned that trust to make the right decision there and drive seeing that his biggest challenge as aplayer is his willingness to take contested three's vs penetrating and finishing or creating an open shot for a teammate. to KB's defense there have not been too many games where he has been put in this spot. Last year we gave the ball to EW and this year fortunetely we haven't played many close games. Maybe KB learns from this. If he does and has better shot selection the rest of the year and penetrates more than the loss was worth it.

[West_End_Gator]

Great analysis. Donovan's whole offensive philosophy is not drawing up set plays but creating situations with pick and rolls and ball screens and letting players react accordingly, just like the OP said.

It works brilliantly most of the time, but it is a problem in pressureful moments at the end of the game if you don't have a player who can create a shot on his own or who can penetrate and shoot or dish with confidence. Historically we haven't been a great close-game team. We've won on last-second shots either when we've hit a bomb (Parsons a couple times, Walker to put that Georgia game into OT, Jai Lucas I think against Kentucky once) or when we did have that great player who could create his own shot (Mike Miller against Butler).

Although he's the senior and the leader of the club, Boynton has shown a propensity to take the quick three under pressure and not work the ball. He seems to worry he's undersized and doesn't trust his ability to penetrate and create. At this point, I think the ball has got to be in Wilbekin's hands, and the coaches have got to pump him full of confidence to trust his instincts when he gets into the lane---take the tear drop or layup, dump it to a big, or pitch it out if somebody is wide open.

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by West_End_Gator

Great analysis. Donovan's whole offensive philosophy is not drawing up set plays but creating situations with pick and rolls and ball screens and letting players react accordingly, just like the OP said.

It works brilliantly most of the time, but it is a problem in pressureful moments at the end of the game if you don't have a player who can create a shot on his own or who can penetrate and shoot or dish with confidence. Historically we haven't been a great close-game team. We've won on last-second shots either when we've hit a bomb (Parsons a couple times, Walker to put that Georgia game into OT, Jai Lucas I think against Kentucky once) or when we did have that great player who could create his own shot (Mike Miller against Butler).

Although he's the senior and the leader of the club, Boynton has shown a propensity to take the quick three under pressure and not work the ball. He seems to worry he's undersized and doesn't trust his ability to penetrate and create. At this point, I think the ball has got to be in Wilbekin's hands, and the coaches have got to pump him full of confidence to trust his instincts when he gets into the lane---take the tear drop or layup, dump it to a big, or pitch it out if somebody is wide open.

Really good post, especially the last paragraph!

[Matthanuf06]

Originally Posted by gatorrick1

Mental and technical are not mutually exclusive. If you work on technical enough, mental improves. That's why player's and teams get better.

Of course, but the thing is we are actually really damn good at most of it. We aren't losing these games because of things we are bad at, we are losing because we are performing poorly at things we are otherwise very good at.

Practice always helps, but in this case it won't help as much.

Lets take FT. Practice isn't going to help free throws in this context. Of course we will get better due to practice, but be problem isn't that we are bad, but rather we get worse at the end of games. Practice isn't really going to help that. Confidence, luck, and time will merge those together. There is ZERO physical reason why performance should be different with 15 mins left vs with 1 min left.

Now lets take last play of the game scenarios. This is something were practice would help because we actually aren't good at it.

[RD_gator]

In the last 10 minutes of that Missouri game, Florida could not score well against Mizzou (27-10 run). Florida should have ran more Casey Prather-Michael Frazier packages in place of either Erik Murphy/Patrick Young & either Wilbekin/Boynton/Rosario. These two players were the most productive of all the seven main ones who competed:

Prather (in 20 min; 7 pts on 3-3 shooting, 7 reb, 2A, 3 stls, 2 blcks)
Frazier (in 16 min; 10 pts on 3-5 shooting, 2 reb, 2A, 2 stls)

Even though Prather picked up 4 fouls, that should not be a reason to sit Casey in the last 8-10 min of the game when Young/Murphy seemed to be so ineffective in that game. Florida should have gone to a quicker, more athletic line-up & played small ball on offense while going to a zone on defense. Both Prather & Frazier were good at scoring points in & around the paint which the Gators were not getting much from Young & Murphy.


Another reason for the poor performance in the post was the lack of total shot attempts by the bigs here:

- Patrick Young (1-4); only had one shot attempt in the first half while also picking up two fouls then: this responsibility of feeding the bigs the ball falls directly on the guards for not staying with the post game when the inside guys attempt to get post position.

-Murphy (0-6 in 1st half; 2-9 from 3-pt range & 3-11 overall); Other than that nice play where Murphy cut to the basket for an easy score, Erik is playing too soft around the basket & needs more plays around the basket.


Another tweak that I would do is try to get Frazier more open 3-pt shot attempts since Frazier seems to be UF's hottest shooter from long range. One way you could do this is put Frazier where Murphy is on offense to get him more looks their along the perimeter rather than just the ones from the corner baseline - during offense, one could place Murphy at SF & Frazier at PF. Also, both Frazier & Prather looked good hitting the mid-range jumpers in the paint region.

[Mayhem41]

We hit front ends, we win.

[99gator]

it's real simple and it can be stated in a much shorter post.

when the going gets tough, we can't get points in the paint and can't get them from the foul line.

[diamondted13]

Originally Posted by gatorrick1

Exactly, also no one is mentioning Murphy as a post up option. I believe he is much better in the post than we give him credit for. Lastly, we don't always have to get a score out of the post for the entry post passes to be effective. Often times the inside out action leads to open shots, fouls on the defense and defending guards thinking more about helping down low and less about who they are guarding.

I've thought about this all day. It seems to me that Murphy was a lot more active around the basket before league play began. He was posting up quite a bit earlier in the year, showing off some of his nice low post moves. As the year has progressed, he seems to have gone away from that, spending far too much time outside the arc. Granted, he is shooting lights out from 3 this year, and is a great pick and roll shooter. But, as pointed out in this thread, we run into trouble as a team when our perimeter shots aren't falling and we become too one-dimensional.

I also don't see us running much high-low action with Murphy/Young. This used to be much more of a staple of the offense in previous years. As you've pointed out, Murphy can deliver a solid entry pass. Am I missing something? Is this a reluctance on Murphy's part to go inside more often or just how the offense has evolved this season?

[jmac83]

An important element in a team's ability to push the ball inside is the desire of its bigs to receive the ball. For every game in which Young and Murphy are assertive about establishing position and demanding the ball, I've seen two in which Young is content being a background prop on offense and Murphy gravitates to the three-point line he loves.

And, let's face it, both guys are frequently kind of clumsy when they do receive the ball in a position to score down low.

Not saying our guards weren't in an entirely different ZIP code last night about running the offense inside-out, but it's sure easier to make it work when the inside guys are eager.

Pat Young may have done enough already with his play, certainly with his physique, to get drafted, but I can't see him as an impact player in the NBA unless he becomes comfortable with asserting himself on offense.

[TampaGatorFan]

Gators beat a shorthanded Mizzou team at the O-Dome by 31.

Mizzou beat a shorthanded Gators team in Columbia by 3.

Do the math.

BTW...with WY, we win by double digits last night.

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by diamondted13

I've thought about this all day. It seems to me that Murphy was a lot more active around the basket before league play began. He was posting up quite a bit earlier in the year, showing off some of his nice low post moves. As the year has progressed, he seems to have gone away from that, spending far too much time outside the arc. Granted, he is shooting lights out from 3 this year, and is a great pick and roll shooter. But, as pointed out in this thread, we run into trouble as a team when our perimeter shots aren't falling and we become too one-dimensional.

I also don't see us running much high-low action with Murphy/Young. This used to be much more of a staple of the offense in previous years. As you've pointed out, Murphy can deliver a solid entry pass. Am I missing something? Is this a reluctance on Murphy's part to go inside more often or just how the offense has evolved this season?

Answering this with strictly my opinion I would say this is more a function of our offense or design of our offense than anything Muphy is doing or not doing. I say this because all good coaches design offenses to get certain player's the ball in certain spots. I am assuming we would see Billy ripping Erik a new one I he on his own decided to just not post up. In fact I think during last night's telecast Billy alluded to our guards getting to three happy.

[gatorrick1]

Originally Posted by jmac83

An important element in a team's ability to push the ball inside is the desire of its bigs to receive the ball. For every game in which Young and Murphy are assertive about establishing position and demanding the ball, I've seen two in which Young is content being a background prop on offense and Murphy gravitates to the three-point line he loves.

And, let's face it, both guys are frequently kind of clumsy when they do receive the ball in a position to score down low.

Not saying our guards weren't in an entirely different ZIP code last night about running the offense inside-out, but it's sure easier to make it work when the inside guys are eager.

Pat Young may have done enough already with his play, certainly with his physique, to get drafted, but I can't see him as an impact player in the NBA unless he becomes comfortable with asserting himself on offense.

I disagree somewhat with this, though not entirely. Meaning I think our bigs, specifically Young, do a better job posting than our guards do of making sure we are getting the ball inside. Your are correct though that being a good, willing receiver is very important.

[DrewGator15]

The thing is that Young wants to be more physical however he can't because we can't afford for him to get in foul trouble because of WY injury