MOC's lunch with George Will

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by fredsanford

Nice.

No, what has actually happened is 30 years of policies designed to destroy the middle class has turned those formerly reliable, blue collar religious voters against them.

Their assembly plants have been closed and they can't find good jobs to replace them because they've all been moved to Asia.

Do you honestly believe this crap? "Designed to destroy the middle class." Really. So, in your heart of hearts and brain of brains, you HONESTLY believe the (R) party has intentionally set forth policies designed specifically to "destroy the middle class?"

Two questions:
1. What is the benefit to this for (R) party?
2. How do you explain the Clinton years and other years within this span that were either completely under (D) control or where the (D)s had a substantial portion of the power?

I'm inclined to believe you are more about hype than this stupid. . . but everytime I read one of these posts I truly wonder.

[reformedgator]

Originally Posted by CHFG8R

Do you honestly believe this crap? "Designed to destroy the middle class." Really. So, in your heart of hearts and brain of brains, you HONESTLY believe the (R) party has intentionally set forth policies designed specifically to "destroy the middle class?"

Two questions:
1. What is the benefit to this for (R) party?
2. How do you explain the Clinton years and other years within this span that were either completely under (D) control or where the (D)s had a substantial portion of the power?

I'm inclined to believe you are more about hype than this stupid. . . but everytime I read one of these posts I truly wonder.

That's freds schtick. It's good for a chuckle, but no one takes him seriously.

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by reformedgator

That's freds schtick. It's good for a chuckle, but no one takes him seriously.

It's sad, really. I like to read the back and forth between the ideological zealots as much as anyone, but this kind of stuff is such a waste of everyone's time. It's not like we don't get enough of this kind of pablum from the respective propaganda outlets on TV.

It would be nice if one could count on this forum as, at the very least, an oasis of substantive debate.

Lastly, I find it hard to believe that Fred is as stupid and Pavlovian as his posts would have you think.

[Matthanuf06]

109k paid in, 340k paid out for health benefits is a great deal for the government. The problem is the government turned it all into a Ponzi scheme instead of properly investing it. 109k now is worth millions at old age. 109k paid in installments is still worth millions at old age.

Just think if the government was smart and invested instead of Ponzi schemed SS and Medicare...the difference in post invested dollars and "paid out" would be a massive surplus and would probably allow us to reduce our taxes to next to nothing...while also upping health coverage and SS.

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by CHFG8R

Do you honestly believe this crap? "Designed to destroy the middle class." Really. So, in your heart of hearts and brain of brains, you HONESTLY believe the (R) party has intentionally set forth policies designed specifically to "destroy the middle class?"

Two questions:
1. What is the benefit to this for (R) party?
2. How do you explain the Clinton years and other years within this span that were either completely under (D) control or where the (D)s had a substantial portion of the power?

I'm inclined to believe you are more about hype than this stupid. . . but everytime I read one of these posts I truly wonder.

Yes, he believes it. It is the classic "conservatives think liberals are wrong; liberals think conservatives are eeeeeevil". You can't defend liberal policy without having assigned genuine malicious ill will to anybody disagreeing with it.

[CHFG8R]

Oh, and BTW Fred, Romney lost and won't be running for anything again. So, perhaps it's time to get over him, don't ya think.

Plus, when you see what they put in office in 2016 (they will, your side's overreaching will insure it), you'll be begging for someone as moderate as Romney.

[mocgator]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

109k paid in, 340k paid out for health benefits is a great deal for the government. The problem is the government turned it all into a Ponzi scheme instead of properly investing it. 109k now is worth millions at old age. 109k paid in installments is still worth millions at old age.

Just think if the government was smart and invested instead of Ponzi schemed SS and Medicare...the difference in post invested dollars and "paid out" would be a massive surplus and would probably allow us to reduce our taxes to next to nothing...while also upping health coverage and SS.

This is the real problem... and the President and Democrats in Congress have no desire to even talk about it..

"Two differences from new deal in 35
-Protracted retirement
-Competent healthcare and longevity

The welfare state and Medicare and Social Security was never built for protracted retirement and competent healthcare and longevity"

[CalSFGator]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

Yes, he believes it. It is the classic "conservatives think liberals are wrong; liberals think conservatives are eeeeeevil". You can't defend liberal policy without having assigned genuine malicious ill will to anybody disagreeing with it.

You are kidding right? Have you really been paying so little attention? The OP himself spends an extraordinary amount of time on this website talking about the evils and intentional destruction of the country by liberals. Have you heard rightwing radio or seen the titles of Ann Coulter books? Both sides clearly do it, but to pretend that the rightwingers are the dispassionate and logical dissenters is loopy.

[mocgator]

Originally Posted by CalSFGator

You are kidding right? Have you really been paying so little attention? The OP himself spends an extraordinary amount of time on this website talking about the evils and intentional destruction of the country by liberals. Have you heard rightwing radio or seen the titles of Ann Coulter books? Both sides clearly do it, but to pretend that the rightwingers are the dispassionate and logical dissenters is loopy.

I have never called liberals evil. Post a link. The liberal belief/ moral system stemming from guilt and self-loathing is not evil. Misguided absolutely. My Father, who was my best friend in the world, was a liberal.

I have no hate for liberals.... Liberal politicians may be a different story. They leverage the guilt/ self-loathing instincts of liberal myrmidons to further their own power. They rob from the productive, demonize the productive, turn the "poor" against the productive... only to further their own power and socialized control of the population. They are worthy of vile intent.

[OaktownGator]

Originally Posted by mocgator

This is the real problem... and the President and Democrats in Congress have no desire to even talk about it..

"Two differences from new deal in 35
-Protracted retirement
-Competent healthcare and longevity

The welfare state and Medicare and Social Security was never built for protracted retirement and competent healthcare and longevity"

Truth.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by mocgator

This is the real problem... and the President and Democrats in Congress have no desire to even talk about it..

"Two differences from new deal in 35
-Protracted retirement
-Competent healthcare and longevity

The welfare state and Medicare and Social Security was never built for protracted retirement and competent healthcare and longevity"

This is exactly what is going to kill this country and the sad thing is there's no political will to get it done. The solution is, lets take more capital from the people to kick the can down the road.

[CalSFGator]

Originally Posted by mocgator

I have never called liberals evil. Post a link. The liberal belief/ moral system stemming from guilt and self-loathing is not evil. Misguided absolutely. My Father, who was my best friend in the world, was a liberal.

I have no hate for liberals.... Liberal politicians may be a different story. They leverage the guilt/ self-loathing instincts of liberal myrmidons to further their own power. They rob from the productive, demonize the productive, turn the "poor" against the productive... only to further their own power and socialized control of the population. They are worthy of vile intent.

So, you are splitting hairs here about the use of the word evil? I won't go searching, but clearly, you are one of the most, if not the most, truculent liberal bashers on this site, and I suspect you hope over a broader array of society. So, your father was self-loathing? I have some ideas why... Just kidding. Just kidding.

But seriously, you don't really believe that your worldview is not everything that MichiGator was claiming to be a problem of liberalism and their lack of perspective? I don't know why I am asking you, of course you don't think that - or your thought process would be much more measured and wouldn't write paragraphs as nonsensical as your last one above - which creates some illusory dichotomy between the left and "the productive" (of which I, and almost everyone I know, constitute both) and then talks about a "vile intent" in an utterly meaningless (semantically and fundamentally) way.

[tegator80]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

This is exactly what is going to kill this country and the sad thing is there's no political will to get it done. The solution is, lets take more capital from the people to kick the can down the road.

I prefer to use a simpler line: "At what cost." Medical advancements are wonderful but in many instances are different but not really better than older options. I think about the use of paper and pencil (with eraser), a calculator, and a personal computer which has now morphed into a smart phone. To believe that technological progress mean that the others are obsolete is just not paying attention. But here we are using our PCs to do things that p&p is just plain better.

But I digress. Along the way we think that because these new things are available that EVERYONE has the right to get them. Not the right to obtain them their way but if you get it then so do I. We are being guilted down the path towards a socialistic environment. Unless we can stop this behavior - and act like adults not only on self sufficiency but in being able to confidently say "no" - then we march on towards perpetual sheepdom. The question is whether there are enough adults out there to stem the tide? My spidey sense tells me not without a civil war.

[Distant Gator]

Great thread. I'm a huge G. Will fan.

A small point- it wasn't ludicrous that Romney thought he would win on Election Day. I followed the pollling discussions fairly closely leading up to the election.

The controversy boiled down to this: Dem turnout was extremely high in 2008. Will that high turnout be repeated in 2012, or will D turnout revert to more historic levels.

Rasmussen and others thought it would revert, other pollsters had it being repeated. It doesn't make someone stupid or evil to think it would revert- but they were wrong. Sometimes good people, even intelligent people, are wrong.

The bottom line was that Obama's team did an incredible job at turning out low income voters as they did in 08. They lost the independents (esp. white voters) but it was enough for a comfortable win.

To a liberal it is obvious in hindsight, but the turnout question was legitimate since Obama was not a novelty any longer.

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by Distant Gator

Great thread. I'm a huge G. Will fan.

A small point- it wasn't ludicrous that Romney thought he would win on Election Day. I followed the pollling discussions fairly closely leading up to the election.

The controversy boiled down to this: Dem turnout was extremely high in 2008. Will that high turnout be repeated in 2012, or will D turnout revert to more historic levels.

Rasmussen and others thought it would revert, other pollsters had it being repeated. It doesn't make someone stupid or evil to think it would revert- but they were wrong. Sometimes good people, even intelligent people, are wrong.

The bottom line was that Obama's team did an incredible job at turning out low income voters as they did in 08. They lost the independents (esp. white voters) but it was enough for a comfortable win.

To a liberal it is obvious in hindsight, but the turnout question was legitimate since Obama was not a novelty any longer.

Turnout was down for both Republicans and Democrats, falling 4.2 percentage points for the Democrats from 33.0 percent of eligible citizens in 2008 to 28.8 this year; and 1.2 percentage points for the GOP from 28.4 in 2008 to 27.2 this year.

link

[madgator]

there are two types of liberals

the naive

and the evil

[OaktownGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

there are two types of partisans

the naive

and the evil

fify

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by OaktownGator

fify

pithy

[madgator]

Originally Posted by OaktownGator

fify

ideologues perhaps

the difference with the leftist ideologies is that they seek to control


classical liberalism holds sacred the liberty of the individual

[OaktownGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

ideologues perhaps

the difference with the leftist ideologies is that they seek to control


classical liberalism holds sacred the liberty of the individual

The people who would identify as "liberal" has certainly changed over time. No disagreement.

I don't even disagree with your assessment that today's liberals (in the general population) look to control.... although I think it is less that by intent, than reflexively looking to govt for "solutions".

But I highlighted "partisans" because Pubs are every bit as controlling and govt driven as Dems are.

At the political party level, both parties represent titanic amounts of FAIL when it comes to upholding our constitution, respecting and protecting our freedoms, and encouraging accountability at all levels - individual, corporate and govt.

They are flip sides of the same corrupt, tainted coin, owned by hugely powerful special interest lobbies from the defense industry to banking to prison industry to pharmaceuticals and insurance, as well as its own enormous web of LEO agencies, and welfare state customers.