Offensive holding on an intentional safety

[WarDamnGator]

One interesting thing that came out of last night is that holding on an intentional safety is a consequence-less infraction. Holding in the endzone is an automatic safety, but they allow the play to continue. I guess the logic of letting play continue is that the punter could fumble for six points. But whether the penalty is called or not, the result of the play would have been exactly the same, a safety with 4 seconds left on the clock. What I saw was the punt rusher getting bear hugged in the endzone, but no call, which bought the Ravens a few extra seconds. CNNSI says there were multiple players holding on the play.

It seems wrong that a team can "cheat" without penalty. I'm not sure if college has the same rules. Perhaps this is something the rules committees should look at. Maybe give the defense the option of taking the safety at the time of the infraction (would require a replay review) instead of the letting the play run it's course.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Was thinking the exact same thing.

[no_more_cowbell]

I noticed that too. It seems like they should at least have to run the play again after a half-the-distance penalty with no time taken off the clock

[Spurffelbow833]

Originally Posted by WarDamnGator

But whether the penalty is called or not, the result of the play would have been exactly the same, a safety with 4 seconds left on the clock.

It's not six of one and half a dozen of the other. Without the holding allowing the punter to run the clock down more, there probably would have been time for one Hail Mary play after the free kick.

[WarDamnGator]

I agree. That was my point. One team is getting an advantage by intentionally breaking the rules, without any consequence. But whether the refs throw the flag or not, the result of the play is the same. If holding was called, the refs would say "Holding on the safety .... by rule a safety is awarded ... free kick Ravens" ... or whatever ... but they wouldn't put the time back on the clock that was burned after the holds.

[helix139]

I'm surprised the Ravens didn't call out the old Buddy Ryan Polish punt team there. One time on a late punt as coach of the Eagles, Ryan intentionally sent 14 men out on his punt team. He was expecting a penalty to be called, forcing a re-kick with more time wasted off the clock. Instead, the refs didn't throw a flag at all and the Eagles had the safest punt in NFL history. Asked after the game if he thought there was anything wrong with having 14 men on the field intentionally, Ryan said he "should have had 15."

[SmootyGator]

Ummm.... this is no different than players fouling at the end of a basketball game. Everyone knows they are "breaking the rules" intentionally, they just have to pretend that they are doing it accidentally or look like they are "going for the ball" or you'll get called for a Technical. It was a smart play by the Ravens, I don't see what the big deal is.

[WarDamnGator]

Originally Posted by SmootyGator

Ummm.... this is no different than players fouling at the end of a basketball game. Everyone knows they are "breaking the rules" intentionally, they just have to pretend that they are doing it accidentally or look like they are "going for the ball" or you'll get called for a Technical. It was a smart play by the Ravens, I don't see what the big deal is.

Actually, there is a big difference there. The offending team gets penalized because the other team gets to shoot free throws (typcially). In this case, it's a loophole in the rules that allows one team to break the rules without any penalty.

[acegator]

In addition to the time being put back on the clock for the penalty, they should award another 2 points for the holding bringing the total points awarded on the play to 4. They should not run the clock for the following kick and return play. This would give the receiving team the ball with whatever time was left on the clock before the double safety. That should make them think twice about doing that again.

[SmootyGator]

Originally Posted by WarDamnGator

Actually, there is a big difference there. The offending team gets penalized because the other team gets to shoot free throws (typcially). In this case, it's a loophole in the rules that allows one team to break the rules without any penalty.

Ummm... they get an automatic safety. How is that not a penalty?

[SmootyGator]

Ummmm.... I just realize that I say "Ummmm... " a lot. I'll stop.

[IndianaStew]

it was smart. I'm gonna guess you were rooting for the 49ers like I was. Nothing wrong with the play and intentional holding calls. They knew and accepted the consequence.

[WarDamnGator]

They were taking a safety anyway. The holding was intentional to waste time ... It's really not a big deal to me, but it probably did cost the 49ers a play. IMO, it's a loophole that needs to be closed, because it's a bit unsportsmanlike to intentionally break the rules when you know their is no consequence for doing so.

[acegator]

Originally Posted by helix139

I'm surprised the Ravens didn't call out the old Buddy Ryan Polish punt team there. One time on a late punt as coach of the Eagles, Ryan intentionally sent 14 men out on his punt team. He was expecting a penalty to be called, forcing a re-kick with more time wasted off the clock. Instead, the refs didn't throw a flag at all and the Eagles had the safest punt in NFL history. Asked after the game if he thought there was anything wrong with having 14 men on the field intentionally, Ryan said he "should have had 15."

To solve problem, they should install a rule that states, "Anytime a team with the lead is guilty of a penalty with 3 minutes or less remaining in the game, the team that is trailing can elect to take the penalty along with resetting the clock to the time the ball was last set ready for play."

[WarDamnGator]

Originally Posted by IndianaStew

it was smart. I'm gonna guess you were rooting for the 49ers like I was. Nothing wrong with the play and intentional holding calls. They knew and accepted the consequence.

No, I didn't care who won, but after game I had a discussion with a friend about why the refs didn't throw the flag for one of the most obvious we'd ever seen. We both concluded that flag or no flag, the play would have stood exactly the same, so we both thought the ref held the flag with that knowledge. But I have to disagree there was (or would have been ) a consequence for the Ravens. They burned another 5-8 seconds off the clock and the play would have been ruled a safety with 4 seconds left either way.

And yeah, it was smart of the Ravens.

[SmootyGator]

Originally Posted by acegator

To solve problem, they should install a rule that states, "Anytime a team with the lead is guilty of a penalty with 3 minutes or less remaining in the game, the team that is trailing can elect to take the penalty along with resetting the clock to the time the ball was last set ready for play."

Problem? Where's the problem? A team broke the rules of the game intentionally and got the appropriate penalty called.

This happens in basketball in like half of the games. It is done for strategic purposes. It's smart coaching/playing.

Changing this would be like basketball changing the rules so that the team that gets fouled in bonus has the choice to take the foul shots, or just inbound the ball again. Are intentional penalties only OK when they stop the clock, and not when they keep the clock going?

[gatorbogey]

when you really think about it: that was a really smart play on the part of the ravens. i would have just had my guy run around for a few seconds, didn't think to hold on the play.

[gatorfansrule]

Originally Posted by SmootyGator

Changing this would be like basketball changing the rules so that the team that gets fouled in bonus has the choice to take the foul shots, or just inbound the ball again.

I'd actually like that rule change in basketball.

[SmootyGator]

Originally Posted by gatorfansrule

I'd actually like that rule change in basketball.

To be honest, so would I. I also think they should get rid of the onside kick as well. Not a lot of people I talk about this with agree with me. Oh well.

[WarDamnGator]

Actually, just to get the facts straight, no penalty was called. It's possible that the refs ate the flag because they knew there was no punishment. But when the punter is standing nearly still, alone in the endzone, and the nearest guy to him is being bear hugged, I can't imagine the refs didn't see it.

Comparisons of football to basketball don't work. The team that commits the foul gets penalized when the other team is given a free chance to score two more points on them. That's a penalty in addition to the desired results of intentional foul, which is to get the ball back with time on the clock. There is an upside, and a downside to late fouls in BB.

Here, the Ravens only got the desired results of the there play, with no penalty (even if one had been called). They got the safety they wanted, and they wasted a few seconds off the clock. Where is the downside?

But to take it one step further, there is a mandatory 10 second run off if the offensive team is trailing late in the game, has no time outs, and commits a foul. The NFL recognized that teams were committing intentional penalties just to stop the clock, and the upside outweighed the downside. This is the exact opposite. A team that was leading late in the game, when the other team has no time outs, commits a penalty to keep the clock rolling.... can't see why one instance should be banned by the rules and the other not.

Like I said, and others have said, this loophole is easy to correct ... give the fouled team the option to accept the penalty and put time back on the clock ... but the safety stands.