The Hagel hearings show just how much Israel owns America

[Lawdog88]

There is a Jewish lobby, and it does try to influence all US foreign policy for its own purposes, which it / they - of course - characterize as common purposes.

The real question is, can we actually analyze and formulate our middle-east policies without the Jewish influence sufficient to make an independent determination of whether they actually are in our best interests . . . or not ?

What's not to know ?

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

There is a Jewish lobby, and it does try to influence all US foreign policy for its own purposes, which it / they - of course - characterize as common purposes.

True. By most objective analyses, Israel supports American interests across the spectrum. They believe in democracy, capitalism, basic human rights as a tenet of social governance--and certainly, Israel "buys American" on a lot of products too.

The real question is, can we actually analyze and formulate our middle-east policies without the Jewish influence sufficient to make an independent determination of whether they actually are in our best interests . . . or not ?

That is a valid question.

As a corollary to that question: it's undoubted that countries such as Egypt and Jordan also receive massive amounts of American foreign aid. Unlike with Israel, where one can tangibly see many benefits to this foreign aid, I'd say it's far tougher to justify the billions we spend on those two Middle Eastern countries given the paltry returns. The best that can be said for such money is that we're "buying peace" between the governments--as the populations of much of the Middle East would likely still elect to eliminate Israel if their governments ever mobilized that political will again. In other words: it's not a lasting peace.

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by LeesGator

We get it already, you hate the Jews. Interesting side note is that the Jewish vote went almost 70% to President Obama.

Thanks for helping me make my point.

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by gatorev12

True. By most objective analyses, Israel supports American interests across the spectrum. They believe in democracy, capitalism, basic human rights as a tenet of social governance--and certainly, Israel "buys American" on a lot of products too.



That is a valid question.

As a corollary to that question: it's undoubted that countries such as Egypt and Jordan also receive massive amounts of American foreign aid. Unlike with Israel, where one can tangibly see many benefits to this foreign aid, I'd say it's far tougher to justify the billions we spend on those two Middle Eastern countries given the paltry returns. The best that can be said for such money is that we're "buying peace" between the governments--as the populations of much of the Middle East would likely still elect to eliminate Israel if their governments ever mobilized that political will again. In other words: it's not a lasting peace.

I think you're missing the point. Their lobby groups act as foreign agents, more loyal to Israel than America. Pushing through bills that could prevent our politicians from negotiating with Iran means war is the only thing that can come of that. Furthermore, AIPAC has gone beyond that to the point of committing espionage against us. What other foreign lobby group has done that? They could care less if it's good for America or not. Did you not watch that ad they ran on Hagel? How because he doesn't have "all options on the table" (meaning war) it means he shouldn't be given that position of power?


If Israel had no nuclear weapons and had signed a nuclear treaty like the NPT, this wouldn't be a problem. As it is, they have nukes, refuse to sign a treaty, and also have never allowed UN inspection of their facilities.



But we expect Iran to allow all of that or we'll label them a "terrorist state."

[Burke]

The left soured on Israel when the Israelis became an advanced, powerful nation rather than a bunch of down and out nobodies.

People who, to them, are to be envied, hated, exploited, and destroyed.

Just like traditional, successful Americans.

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by Burke

The left soured on Israel when the Israelis became an advanced, powerful nation rather than a bunch of down and out nobodies.

People who, to them, are to be envied, hated, exploited, and destroyed.

Just like traditional, successful Americans.

Using that logic, similar to the right on Iran, right? The Iranians decided they no longer wanted to have a puppet government (The Shah) in power and since that time, they are now the #2 power in the Middle East behind Israel and only because Israel has nuclear weapons. Otherwise, due to the size of the country, they would be #1.

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by AmericaFirst

I think you're missing the point. Their lobby groups act as foreign agents, more loyal to Israel than America. Pushing through bills that could prevent our politicians from negotiating with Iran means war is the only thing that can come of that. Furthermore, AIPAC has gone beyond that to the point of committing espionage against us. What other foreign lobby group has done that? They could care less if it's good for America or not. Did you not watch that ad they ran on Hagel? How because he doesn't have "all options on the table" (meaning war) it means he shouldn't be given that position of power?

If Israel had no nuclear weapons and had signed a nuclear treaty like the NPT, this wouldn't be a problem. As it is, they have nukes, refuse to sign a treaty, and also have never allowed UN inspection of their facilities.

But we expect Iran to allow all of that or we'll label them a "terrorist state."

Afternoon doost.

No, I get what your point is. It's pretty transparent, though you claim otherwise. Question: are you on some type of quota from your Iranian friends that mandates you post a certain amount of anti-Israeli propaganda every month? Interested if it's more of a "pay per post" quota or a flat fee arrangement for their marketing.

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by AmericaFirst

Using that logic, similar to the right on Iran, right? The Iranians decided they no longer wanted to have a puppet government (The Shah) in power and since that time, they are now the #2 power in the Middle East behind Israel and only because Israel has nuclear weapons. Otherwise, due to the size of the country, they would be #1.

Actually, something I agree with for a change.

Surprised you'd admit this, really, after spending many previous threads arguing how Iran's leaders don't routinely pine for an Islamic caliphate under Persian rule. Iran sees themselves as the natural leader for Central Asia and the Arabian peninsula. After all, it was theirs for centuries and they want to gain it back.

What better way to achieve regional hegemony than by knocking off the #1 (and most hated) player in the region?

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by gatorev12

Actually, something I agree with for a change.

Surprised you'd admit this, really, after spending many previous threads arguing how Iran's leaders don't routinely pine for an Islamic caliphate under Persian rule. Iran sees themselves as the natural leader for Central Asia and the Arabian peninsula. After all, it was theirs for centuries and they want to gain it back.

What better way to achieve regional hegemony than by knocking off the #1 (and most hated) player in the region?

As they should. They have one of the oldest civilizations in the world and the top military in the region outside of Israel. With that said, they've actually signed a nuclear treaty and hold conferences to get nuclear weapons out of the region. Israel? They obviously don't want that. They believe they are above the law.

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by gatorev12

Afternoon doost.

No, I get what your point is. It's pretty transparent, though you claim otherwise. Question: are you on some type of quota from your Iranian friends that mandates you post a certain amount of anti-Israeli propaganda every month? Interested if it's more of a "pay per post" quota or a flat fee arrangement for their marketing.

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

[Row6]

Originally Posted by gatorev12

True. By most objective analyses, Israel supports American interests across the spectrum. They believe in democracy, capitalism, basic human rights as a tenet of social governance--and certainly, Israel "buys American" on a lot of products too.



That is a valid question.

As a corollary to that question: it's undoubted that countries such as Egypt and Jordan also receive massive amounts of American foreign aid. Unlike with Israel, where one can tangibly see many benefits to this foreign aid, I'd say it's far tougher to justify the billions we spend on those two Middle Eastern countries given the paltry returns. The best that can be said for such money is that we're "buying peace" between the governments--as the populations of much of the Middle East would likely still elect to eliminate Israel if their governments ever mobilized that political will again. In other words: it's not a lasting peace.

The money we spend on Egypt is a direct result of peace accords guaranteeing the security of Israel - it's protection money. I say that without criticizing the policy, but facing facts.

[ajoseph]

Awesome!! Our resident Iranian caliph who ironically refers to himself as "AmericaFirst" is back in action, spitting out his racist, anti-Israel propaganda. A reader's delight ...

[ajoseph]

Originally Posted by AmericaFirst

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

When comments such as these are made, there is absolutely no room left for any semblance of credibility. The posts by the OP, if not for their blatant racism and dangerous vitriol, would simply be comic relief. Rarely does one come across with someone with such a patent agenda as the OP. I'll give it to him, he really does work hard to earn the money his Iranian puppeteers must give him.

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by AmericaFirst

As they should. They have one of the oldest civilizations in the world and the top military in the region outside of Israel. With that said, they've actually signed a nuclear treaty and hold conferences to get nuclear weapons out of the region. Israel? They obviously don't want that. They believe they are above the law.

The Iranian military is impressive on the ground, sure--but after that, there isn't much to write home about.

Their air force is a joke and the nearly everyone else in the region would destroy them with minimal effort. Same with their navy.

The Saudis are the second-best military in the region, followed closely by the UAE, and Qatar. Kuwait is also decent--as is Bahrain.

Any military professional will tell you sheer numbers don't exactly matter if you lack modern equipment and training. After the first Gulf War, most of the Arab countries realized that having a large military is inefficient and essentially useless unless you have quality training and equipment.

[AzCatFan]

Originally Posted by AmericaFirst

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

Your facts are other people's propaganda, just as their facts are your propaganda. There are three sides to every story, and you, AF, only ever spew the anti-Israeli side. Certainly the Israelis are far from lily-white, but if the Arabs wanted peace, why did they instead of accepting the Clinton accords, launch the Second Infidata? Is it because the Arabs in the region will only accept peace on their own terms, meaning Israel no longer exists?

There have been plenty of opportunities for peace in the region, but as the saying goes, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity." You can see why, throughout the past 60 years or so, the Israelis have become more and more suspect of their neighbors. Again, Israel itself shoulders plenty of blame, but the Palestinians and their supporters are far from angels too. So far from angels that in this conflict, yes, I would say the Palestinians are the "evil" ones. Maybe if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel...Let's just say, I won't hold my breath.

[ajoseph]

Originally Posted by AzCatFan

Your facts are other people's propaganda, just as their facts are your propaganda. There are three sides to every story, and you, AF, only ever spew the anti-Israeli side. Certainly the Israelis are far from lily-white, but if the Arabs wanted peace, why did they instead of accepting the Clinton accords, launch the Second Infidata? Is it because the Arabs in the region will only accept peace on their own terms, meaning Israel no longer exists?

There have been plenty of opportunities for peace in the region, but as the saying goes, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity." You can see why, throughout the past 60 years or so, the Israelis have become more and more suspect of their neighbors. Again, Israel itself shoulders plenty of blame, but the Palestinians and their supporters are far from angels too. So far from angels that in this conflict, yes, I would say the Palestinians are the "evil" ones. Maybe if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel...Let's just say, I won't hold my breath.

Wow!! A post by someone without an agenda. And look how sensible the words read. Logical, objective, and unbiased on any level. Thank you for bringing reason to a thread that was started to fuel hate.

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by AmericaFirst

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

It's a fact that Iran is the largest state-supporter of terrorism and has actively given terrorist organizations money and weapons for decades to attack Israel, the US, the Saudis, and many others. For as much as you complain about Israeli "false flag" operations--there's ample evidence of attacks that had Iranian fingerprints all over them. Including a recent attempt to assassinate the Saudi ambassador in the US.

It's a fact the Iranians claim their program is for "peaceful purposes, solely for civilian use"--yet bury their facilities underground, refuse international access to their facilities, and refuse international efforts to give them non-weaponized nuclear reactors that they *could* use for nuclear power if that was their actual desire.

But continue your one-man crusade against the Jews and go on with your illusions of Iran as a benevolent country.

[oragator1]

I can't speak for anyone else, but of course we should generally be allied with Israel, no problem there. There are a democracy, what amounts to a minority state with lots of ties to the US.
the problem is that they have a disproportionate power over our government, such that to even dare criticize them for anything is to risk your job as a politician. This means we as a country are forced into allowing things that harm our self interest abroad, all for a country that is wholly dependent on us for their survival. Somehow they are the ones with the power in a relationship where in theory we hold 99% of it, but in reality they hold the strings. There isn't another country on earth that hold the power here that they do, and it's detrimental to us as a country as well as being counter to our interests in many cases. Israel building more settlements will be a recruitment tool for our enemies, but yet we say next to nothing. Israel choking off Palestinian territories again will be a recruitment tool against us, but we say nothing. Lack of progress in talks harms us, but we don't put any pressure on them. Lack of progress in peace means we have to continue to spend billions propping them up, and literally trillion on protecting ourselves in part because of their flashpoint. Americans around the world die because of these things, but when Hagel and others have the temerity to point it out, it's they who have to apologize. It's insane.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by ajoseph

Wow!! A post by someone without an agenda. And look how sensible the words read. Logical, objective, and unbiased on any level. Thank you for bringing reason to a thread that was started to fuel hate.

We all have, at minimum, a predisposition on these kinds of issues, if not an outright prejudgment and / or agenda.

Not all of them are bad, either.

Unabashed Jew-hating is one that is.

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by ajoseph

Wow!! A post by someone without an agenda. And look how sensible the words read. Logical, objective, and unbiased on any level. Thank you for bringing reason to a thread that was started to fuel hate.

LOL you're agreeing with someone who believes what you believe. Hilarious. I gave you the facts on Israeli terrorism, how they refuse to declare their nuclear weapons, and how they refuse to sign a treaty. FACTS