Post-mill, Pre-mill, A-mill

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Funny that the Jews don't think the single most import event in Jewish history has occurred either.

They certainly do vest 70 AD with profound importance. They see what Christians appear to be missing. But they have a yearning problem too. Just as Christians have yearned for the return of Jesus for nearly TWO-THOUSAND years, Jews have yearned a similarly long time for their temple to be rebuilt.

Yeah, like that's happening soon. Maybe if Obama steps up the drone attacks. I suspect all the Muslims are going to have to die before the Jews can find an available tract of developable land.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by 92gator

I read it as an admonition to Egypt, in relation to Egypt's stubborn adherence to paganism, idolotry, and manufacturing custom made pretend 'gods'.

What pretersim was I supposed to read in it?

It was a 'judicial coming.' Jesus did the same thing in 70 AD. In short: Jesus was true to his word. He 'returned' in the manner in which he intended to return.

It's all entirely consistent in the manner in which God chastens his enemies through the medium of their enemies. In the Jews case, it was the Roman herd and its mercenaries.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

When you show me proof that Jesus Christ existed, then I will take back what I said. Until then, I am not sure why you think your opinion is any more valid than mine.

Actually, I know why you think your opinion is more valid than mine.

It's funny how you and many other on here think that calling me a liberal is a bad thing. I'd rather be a liberal than a right wing nut...

Furthermore...

I'm not questioning the validity of your opinion--not even the right to hold what you do--it's your opinion--all I did, was point out the blatant hypocrisy of pleaing for 'common courtesy', after mockingly equating belief in Jesus Christ, with the easter bunny and santa clause--both of the latter being fictitious characters invented and perpetuated as silly anectodal myths that parents use to entertain kids. No one ever died for santa clause or the EB; no one lives for SC/EB...

...while >1.8 billion ppl. view Jesus Christ as the single mose significant human being to have ever existed, and another 900 million (muslims) not only acknowlege his existence, but revere him as a prophet--and the Jews also acknowledge his existence--they just deny he was the messiah, the Christ, or even a prophet.

...and this is without counting the hundreds of millinos of martyrs, and believers who have died through the ages, since Christ actually walked among us.

As for the liberal thing--the point is, you're not 'liberal'--you're neo-libby.


Big difference.

...and it is evidenced by your posting in this thread.

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by 92gator

^^^are you really denying even the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth???

That's not something that's really in dispute amongst most reputable academia.

Is this really what you are challenging?

I am saying that I don't believe all of the stories that I hear about Jesus "Son of God".

I don't believe all of the stories that I have been taught about Judaism as well.

I have faith, but not absolute faith.

I apologize for my comments about Santa and Easter Bunny if anyone was offended. It was really just an over the top joke to make a point.

As I have said before, it really is only important what you believe in and not what can be proven to be true.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

I am saying that I don't believe all of the stories that I hear about Jesus "Son of God".

I don't believe all of the stories that I have been taught about Judaism as well.

I have faith, but not absolute faith.

I apologize for my comments about Santa and Easter Bunny if anyone was offended. It was really just an over the top joke to make a point.

As I have said before, it really is only important what you believe in and not what can be proven to be true.

Why would anyone waste time vesting their hopes in something they were not fairly confident was true ? This sort of stance is no more advisable for a religious person than for an irreligious person. And indeed the Bible warns against it.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

It was a 'judicial coming.' Jesus did the same thing in 70 AD. In short: Jesus was true to his word. He 'returned' in the manner in which he intended to return.

It's all entirely consistent in the manner in which God chastens his enemies through the medium of their enemies. In the Jews case, it was the Roman herd and its mercenaries.

OK....I know what you believe about Jesus...but what is the connection to that passage in Isiah you sited? How does that somehow support your preterist views, let alone undermine the non-preterist interpretation?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by 92gator

OK....I know what you believe about Jesus...but what is the connection to that passage in Isiah you sited? How does that somehow support your preterist views, let alone undermine the non-preterist interpretation?

I am saying that there is no Biblical warrant for a visible, earth-destroying return-of-deity. There are many 'comings' in scripture and they all involve either natural catastrophes (Sodom and Gomorrah) or, far more frequently, vanquishment by opposing armies (Babylon, Egypt ... Jerusalem).

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Why would anyone waste time vesting their hopes in something they were not fairly confident was true ? This sort of stance is no more advisable for a religious person than for an irreligious person. And indeed the Bible warns against it.

I am Jewish and proud to be Jewish and I believe its important to follow the Jewish heritage to an extent. There are many different levels of Judaism. It's more of a cultural thing for me and a race (that's for another discussion)

I don't live my life according to the bible/Ten Commandments, although I probably do agree with some of its teachings.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

I am Jewish and proud to be Jewish and I believe its important to follow the Jewish heritage to an extent. There are many different levels of Judaism. It's more of a cultural thing for me and a race (that's for another discussion)

I don't live my life according to the bible/Ten Commandments, although I probably do agree with some of its teachings.

Well, it's at least comforting to know that you believe that stealing and killing is wrong. Oops! but I guess you do vote.

*runs away*

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by 92gator

Furthermore...

I'm not questioning the validity of your opinion--not even the right to hold what you do--it's your opinion--all I did, was point out the blatant hypocrisy of pleaing for 'common courtesy', after mockingly equating belief in Jesus Christ, with the easter bunny and santa clause--both of the latter being fictitious characters invented and perpetuated as silly anectodal myths that parents use to entertain kids. No one ever died for santa clause or the EB; no one lives for SC/EB...

...while >1.8 billion ppl. view Jesus Christ as the single mose significant human being to have ever existed, and another 900 million (muslims) not only acknowlege his existence, but revere him as a prophet--and the Jews also acknowledge his existence--they just deny he was the messiah, the Christ, or even a prophet.

...and this is without counting the hundreds of millinos of martyrs, and believers who have died through the ages, since Christ actually walked among us.

As for the liberal thing--the point is, you're not 'liberal'--you're neo-libby.


Big difference.

...and it is evidenced by your posting in this thread.

My comment was that he doesn't exist the way you say he does. That is my belief. If you consider that not being courteous to your beliefs, then that is your choice. To me, Christianity, Catholicism, are some of the most close-minded belief systems out there. Again, this is my opinion. Nothing I have stated here is something I am claiming to be fact.

I'm not a neo-liberal, but again I don't really care if you think that.

I don't have to defend myself to anyone. I know the kind of person, brother, son, friend I am. I couldn't care less what you think of me. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

[92gator]

@ Dream

I am saying that there is no Biblical warrant for a visible, earth-destroying return-of-deity. There are many 'comings' in scripture and they all involve either natural catastrophes (Sodom and Gomorrah) or, far more frequently, vanquishment by opposing armies (Babylon, Egypt ... Jerusalem).

^^^gotcha'. Thank you for clearing that up.

Though I believe by "biblical warrant', you mean biblica precedent--because the Book of Revelation seems to warrant an earth shattering (if not destroying) 'return of deity'.

oh...and there's also that time when Yeshau came along.

That was pretty much 'return of deity' no?

...and the resurrection thingy...wasn't that a bit 'return of deitiy' ish?

...and then there was the pentecost deal....the holy spirit coming along...wasn't that 'return of deity' ish?

...just say'n...

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

My comment was that he doesn't exist the way you say he does. That is my belief. If you consider that not being courteous to your beliefs, then that is your choice. To me, Christianity, Catholicism, are some of the most close-minded belief systems out there. Again, this is my opinion. Nothing I have stated here is something I am claiming to be fact.

I'm not a neo-liberal, but again I don't really care if you think that.

I don't have to defend myself to anyone. I know the kind of person, brother, son, friend I am. I couldn't care less what you think of me. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Then you protest too much. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Then you protest too much. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

It's a message board. Without differing opinions, what would be the point.

I do like to play the Devils Advocate sometimes just to hear how people feel or get a discussion going.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

It's a message board. Without differing opinions, what would be the point.

I do like to play the Devils Advocate sometimes just to hear how people feel or get a discussion going.

I do the same with ((professing) atheists.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

My comment was that he doesn't exist the way you say he does. That is my belief. If you consider that not being courteous to your beliefs, then that is your choice. To me, Christianity, Catholicism, are some of the most close-minded belief systems out there. Again, this is my opinion. Nothing I have stated here is something I am claiming to be fact.

I'm not a neo-liberal, but again I don't really care if you think that.

I don't have to defend myself to anyone. I know the kind of person, brother, son, friend I am. I couldn't care less what you think of me. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

I respect your beliefs, and your right to hold 'em. But equating Jesus Christ to the EB or SC--well, let's just say that I would expect a sharp reaction from you, and evey Jew on this site, if I chimed in to a thread about some distinction about Jewish theology, with something akin to:

"...the holocaust is a myth...never happened...may as well believe in the EB or SC....it's just some zionist hoaz designed to gain the world's sympathy..."

Wouldn't be very...*kosher*, no?

Anyway--I think we've beaten that horse dead, and then some.

Let us move on...

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by 92gator

@ Dream



^^^gotcha'. Thank you for clearing that up.

Though I believe by "biblical warrant', you mean biblica precedent--because the Book of Revelation seems to warrant an earth shattering (if not destroying) 'return of deity'.

oh...and there's also that time when Yeshau came along.

That was pretty much 'return of deity' no?

...and the resurrection thingy...wasn't that a bit 'return of deitiy' ish?

...and then there was the pentecost deal....the holy spirit coming along...wasn't that 'return of deity' ish?

...just say'n...

Bear in mind that Revelation employs the very same earth-shattering language that the Old Testament does. And of course the earth wasn't destroyed back then either.

Yes, I do believe in the Resurrection. And the Ascension. And remember that Jesus said he's return "in like manner." How many saw him ascend ? Not many.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Bear in mind that Revelation employs the very same earth-shattering language that the Old Testament does. And of course the earth wasn't destroyed back then either.

Yes, I do believe in the Resurrection. And the Ascension. And remember that Jesus said he's return "in like manner." How many saw him ascend ? Not many.

How many saw him return ?

None.

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by 92gator

I respect your beliefs, and your right to hold 'em. But equating Jesus Christ to the EB or SC--well, let's just say that I would expect a sharp reaction from you, and evey Jew on this site, if I chimed in to a thread about some distinction about Jewish theology, with something akin to:

"...the holocaust is a myth...never happened...may as well believe in the EB or SC....it's just some zionist hoaz designed to gain the world's sympathy..."

Wouldn't be very...*kosher*, no?

Anyway--I think we've beaten that horse dead, and then some.

Let us move on...

Except for the fact that I have personally met people that experienced the Holocaust.

Any other examples? I'm pretty open to comments that I know are joking about being Jewish. I get them alot.

Agreed that we have beaten the horse dead.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

How many saw him return ?

None.

How do you know ? The Disciples, dey all dead.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

How do you know ? The Disciples, dey all dead.

And dey nevah said.

Totally uncool for them to start keeping secrets about the very Man they gave their lives for.

And nonsensical. But only if you think about it.