Post-mill, Pre-mill, A-mill

[QGator2414]

Really enjoying the discussion!

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

If there was one idea I would think I could get any Christian to agree with... or any non-Christian, even. That I could get even the harshest atheist to agree with, if they would concede, arguendo, that the Gospel is a true and accurate account. That idea would be that Jesus' promised return would be neither ambiguous nor underwhelming.

The fundamental flaw in preterism is that it requires, core belief, that the second coming was entirely ambiguous and completely underwhelming, so much so that nobody felt inclined to jot it down or tell the neighbors about it.

If the most persuasive point for coming to Christ is that Jesus' promised triumphant return has already occurred, and the world we live in is the best evidence of what He can do in taking the created world and the objective powers of evil under his total dominion . . .

there would not only be a mass exodus, there would be theological lawsuits for false representation, false personation, and breach of promise.

The Holy Spirit, however, who is here and doing the work of the Father in the physical absence of the Son, convinces me otherwise.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

If the most persuasive point for coming to Christ is that Jesus' promised triumphant return has already occurred, and the world we live in is the best evidence of what He can do in taking the created world and the objective powers of evil under his total dominion . . .

there would not only be a mass exodus, there would be theological lawsuits for false representation, false personation, and breach of promise.

The Holy Spirit, however, who is here and doing the work of the Father in the physical absence of the Son, convinces me otherwise.

Everybody's angry and disappointed with Jesus these days. Everybody needs fireworks and a Red Bull every five hours.

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Everybody's angry and disappointed with Jesus these days. Everybody needs fireworks and a Red Bull every five hours.

I am not disappointed in Jesus, I am disappointed in the misguided idea that He was a disappointment and that He returned, went entirely unnoticed by history or religious scholarship, apparently didn't say or do anything of note, and delivered us a paradise so grand that we got the dark ages and the plague and whatnot.

See, the preterist actually is stuck to answer those otherwise pointless atheist bromides about why would God let bad things happen. Because, after all, the preterist is arguing that this, what we have, is the finished product of the kingdom that was promised, not a lease to crappy human beings.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

I am not disappointed in Jesus, I am disappointed in the misguided idea that He was a disappointment and that He returned, went entirely unnoticed by history or religious scholarship, apparently didn't say or do anything of note, and delivered us a paradise so grand that we got the dark ages and the plague and whatnot.

See, the preterist actually is stuck to answer those otherwise pointless atheist bromides about why would God let bad things happen. Because, after all, the preterist is arguing that this, what we have, is the finished product of the kingdom that was promised, not a lease to crappy human beings.

You're missing the point. You are arguing, by extension, that if we are indeed living in a post-Parousia world, that Jesus has failed us bigtime, left us in a 'craphole.'

If, on the other hand, Jesus is not the wooden literalist you are, maybe he had in mind something more sublime. After all, you and I have had Jesus for breakfast, lunch and dinner, whereas even Jesus' own disciples were unable to grasp, even on the eve of his arrest, that a personal relationship with God was there for the taking.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Everybody's angry and disappointed with Jesus these days. Everybody needs fireworks and a Red Bull every five hours.

Forget the fireworks; that's just what the atheists want.

Everybody else who wants to know the truth, simply wants the real deal.

[Dreamliner]

Just a thought, but have you guys ever tried reading the Bible ? I mean, the New Testament passages you base your utopianist expectations on are taken directly from Isaiah 65,66, his New Heaven and Earth. Have you noticed that people die in this New Heaven and Earth ?

Have you noticed, in Revelation 21, that there is a tree which leaves are for the healing of the nations, and that the dogs are on the outside ?

Sounds to me a sort of spiritual, not physical arrangement that ... wait for it - the Jews of Jesus' time did not enjoy ... BUT THAT WE CAN!

And we're the ones who are grousing!

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

You're missing the point. You are arguing, by extension, that if we are indeed living in a post-Parousia world, that Jesus has failed us bigtime, left us in a 'craphole.'

If, on the other hand, Jesus is not the wooden literalist you are, maybe he had in mind something more sublime. After all, you and I have had Jesus for breakfast, lunch and dinner, whereas even Jesus' own disciples were unable to grasp, even on the eve of his arrest, that a personal relationship with God was there for the taking.

Wrong headed theology rears again.

The Disciples had no opportunity for any personal relationship with God, until they too . . . like everybody else . . . rejected Him and failed to believe what He said about Himself.

It is clear that what happened to them afterwards, and what happens to us after we admit that we are exactly like them, is the important stuff.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Wrong headed theology rears again.

The Disciples had no opportunity for any personal relationship with God, until they too . . . like everybody else . . . rejected Him and failed to believe what He said about Himself.

It is clear that what happened to them afterwards, and what happens to us after we admit that we are exactly like them, is the important stuff.

This New Heaven and Earth, was it before Jesus and everyone missed it ?

You may be a reverse-preterist!

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Just a thought, but have you guys ever tried reading the Bible ? I mean, the New Testament passages you base your utopianist expectations on are taken directly from Isaiah 65,66, his New Heaven and Earth. Have you noticed that people die in this New Heaven and Earth ?

Have you noticed, in Revelation 21, that there is a tree which leaves are for the healing of the nations, and that the dogs are on the outside ?

Sounds to me a sort of spiritual, not physical arrangement that ... wait for it - the Jews of Jesus' time did not enjoy ... BUT THAT WE CAN!

And we're the ones who are grousing!

Since you're into reading the Bible and all, and especially The Revelation of St. John the Divine, did you happen to notice that that particular document was written around 90, A.D., well after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. . . . and St. John overlooked making the minor announcement that Jesus had returned and His kingdom begun ?

Dang it. Another perfect opportunity to firmly establish pretersim for the severest of critics, for all time, blown.

But we have had this discussion over the years, haven't we ?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Since you're into reading the Bible and all, and especially The Revelation of St. John the Divine, did you happen to notice that that particular document was written around 90, A.D., well after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. . . . and St. John overlooked making the minor announcement that Jesus had returned and His kingdom begun ?

Dang it. Another perfect opportunity to firmly establish pretersim for the severest of critics, for all time, blown.

But we have had this discussion over the years, haven't we ?

No, I didn't 'notice' that Revelation was written around 90 AD. I have noticed that the late-dating theory is tendentious. And I've also pondered how odd that it would have been for a Bible-writer to have left out the single most important event in Jewish history.

[ArtVandelay]

Serious question: How is it that so many people have differing opinions of Jesus, how everything went down and what the future holds?

[helix139]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

Serious question: How is it that so many people have differing opinions of Jesus, how everything went down and what the future holds?

Because the Bible doesn't tell us everything about everything, just what God would have us know. It's perfect in its sufficiency, but we as humans have an insatiable desire to become all-knowing ourselves.

At its core, you'll find that the vast majority agree that mankind is sinful in nature and therefore separated from God, yet God loved man and wanted to end the separation so He sent Christ his Son to earth, who was fully God and fully man and free of sin. Christ willingly allowed his own unjust death, taking God's wrath for all sin ever, and then rose again as death has no power over the holiness of God. This provides salvation for all who submit themselves to God and acknowledge their inability to save themselves and accept the salvation that is offered. Jesus then ascended, and left behind the holy spirit, which is how Christians can come to know Christ/God.

That's the core of it, which 99% of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants agree on. the rest is merely window dressing that is secondary or tertiary to the main point. It's fun to talk about and discuss, but ultimately doesn't affect one's salvation.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

No, I didn't 'notice' that Revelation was written around 90 AD. I have noticed that the late-dating theory is tendentious. And I've also pondered how odd that it would have been for a Bible-writer to have left out the single most important event in Jewish history.

Funny that the Jews don't think the single most import event in Jewish history has occurred either.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

I have equal tolerance for everyone and believe that everyone should be treated equally (except those than have done something illegal and have given up that right)

I believe in common sense and common courtesy.

Speaking of tolerance...I guess you don't support my right to have an opinion on this since you don't like what my opinion is. Is that a correct assumption?

Sure....your have an absolute right to be a blatant hypocrite, and a complete ass. I believe that's expressly protected in the First Amendment.

But please don't embarass yourself further, by invoking "common courtesy" plea, when you come in to a thread about Christianity, flaming with crap equating Jesus Christ--a historical figure, if nothing else--to the Easter bunny, and .

...at least you do represent your neo-libby ilk truthfully, and consistently.

(LMAO @ "common courtesy"--what a joke...)

[92gator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

...

Quiz: how do you interpret Isaiah 19:1ff ?

I read it as an admonition to Egypt, in relation to Egypt's stubborn adherence to paganism, idolotry, and manufacturing custom made pretend 'gods'.

What pretersim was I supposed to read in it?

[92gator]

Originally Posted by helix139

Because the Bible doesn't tell us everything about everything, just what God would have us know. It's perfect in its sufficiency, but we as humans have an insatiable desire to become all-knowing ourselves.

At its core, you'll find that the vast majority agree that mankind is sinful in nature and therefore separated from God, yet God loved man and wanted to end the separation so He sent Christ his Son to earth, who was fully God and fully man and free of sin. Christ willingly allowed his own unjust death, taking God's wrath for all sin ever, and then rose again as death has no power over the holiness of God. This provides salvation for all who submit themselves to God and acknowledge their inability to save themselves and accept the salvation that is offered. Jesus then ascended, and left behind the holy spirit, which is how Christians can come to know Christ/God.

That's the core of it, which 99% of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants agree on. the rest is merely window dressing that is secondary or tertiary to the main point. It's fun to talk about and discuss, but ultimately doesn't affect one's salvation.

Excellent reply-substantively (with reservation for the 'perfect sufficiency' of the Bible)--and very Christian of you, to dignify a blatantly mocking flamer with a sincere post. I am in constant need of assistance in the whole 'turn the other cheek' thing. Thank you for a fine example and humbling reminder.

Rep if I could.

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by 92gator

Sure....your have an absolute right to be a blatant hypocrite, and a complete ass. I believe that's expressly protected in the First Amendment.

But please don't embarass yourself further, by invoking "common courtesy" plea, when you come in to a thread about Christianity, flaming with crap equating Jesus Christ--a historical figure, if nothing else--to the Easter bunny, and .

...at least you do represent your neo-libby ilk truthfully, and consistently.

(LMAO @ "common courtesy"--what a joke...)

When you show me proof that Jesus Christ existed, then I will take back what I said. Until then, I am not sure why you think your opinion is any more valid than mine.

Actually, I know why you think your opinion is more valid than mine.

It's funny how you and many other on here think that calling me a liberal is a bad thing. I'd rather be a liberal than a right wing nut...

[92gator]

^^^are you really denying even the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth???

That's not something that's really in dispute amongst most reputable academia.

Is this really what you are challenging?

[gatorman_07732]

I'm rubber and you're glue.......