Post-mill, Pre-mill, A-mill

[Gatormb]

Originally Posted by 92gator

I believe you've confused me with MB (Gatormb, that is). He left his presbytarian parish over 'squabbling', or something like that. I've been at the same parish since before I started posting on here--and the reason I didn't go to the contemporary parish for which I am zoned, is a combinaation of habit, and the fact that they need me more than the contemporary parish does. If I thought they needed me more at the contemporary parish for which I am zoned, I'd go there--and for that reason.

To paraprhrase a famous Catholic:

"ask not what your parish can do for you, but what you can do for your parish".

(yes, I know...cheesy...but hey, it's a message board).

Twas not the squabbling but the lack of concern for those outside the church other than to donate to those ministries who did what Christians are called to do...reach out to the lost and those in need.

Am an admirer of Catholic Charities for the wonderful job they do.

Fodder for another thread 92. 'Founders" and defenders of the doctrine of election were St.'s Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I hope you're not saying that you're shutting down because I have questions about the Trinity.

Of course not. I would like to hear your position on the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Why do you wonder if the HS is divine? I read the scriptures and I see the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Trinity. You are conflicted on this. Why?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Of course not. I would like to hear your position on the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Why do you wonder if the HS is divine? I read the scriptures and I see the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Trinity. You are conflicted on this. Why?

I'd just prefer to remain an agnostic on the subject. If the concept of the Trinity is so embedded in scripture, why did it take Christians 350 years to figure it out ? If it's so central to the faith, why do none of the requirements for salvation, in the NT, include "Jesus is God" ? And if the pronouns in Greek can refer to 'it' as easily as 'he', why should we dig in on the Holy Spirit ?

For me it's just one of those things like baptism, a nearly intractable controversy. It may be true. It may not be true. I can never regard it as a test of salvation.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'd just prefer to remain an agnostic on the subject. If the concept of the Trinity is so embedded in scripture, why did it take Christians 350 years to figure it out ? If it's so central to the faith, why do none of the requirements for salvation, in the NT, include "Jesus is God" ? And if the pronouns in Greek can refer to 'it' as easily as 'he', why should we dig in on the Holy Spirit ?

For me it's just one of those things like baptism, a nearly intractable controversy. It may be true. It may not be true. I can never regard it as a test of salvation.

You're saying I don't know if the Holy Spirit is part of the essence of God. That's something you want to settle once and for all. For me it's so clear in scripture that the Holy Spirit is an active part of the Godhead. I would have to parse so much scripture in a negative way to deny this.

Matthew 12:31-33 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Notice that Jesus elevates the Holy Spirit above himself. To me he has to be speaking of the Godhead.
Romans 8:2-6 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; Notice that the Holy Spirit requires that we live by following Him.
Acts 2:1-5 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. Notice that the Holy Spirit empowered the Apostles to do miracles.
Mark 13:11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Notice the Holy Spirit speaking through the faithful.
Acts 9:31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. Notice the Holy Spirit multiplying the church.

These things, my friend, are God Himself protecting, empowering and multiplying His church. I think you have to work very hard to deny this.
Dream, whenever I am perplexed and confused I just ask God to open my mind and heart and open His word to me. He has never failed me. I pray that you will find the answer that the Holy Spirit will confirm in your spirit is the truth.

[Dreamliner]

I'm not really interested in debating the Trinity. As far as I'm concerned, both sides have good arguments. I'm saying that I don't have to decide on an issue that is far from being starkly evident. I believe that God is well able to deliver me without my understanding the precise substance of his nature.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'm not really interested in debating the Trinity. As far as I'm concerned, both sides have good arguments. I'm saying that I don't have to decide on an issue that is far from being starkly evident. I believe that God is well able to deliver me without my understanding the precise substance of his nature.

We must not neglect the central reason for our existence which is to worship and love our creator. In order to please Him we must worship rightly. That means knowing Gods nature. Of course we cannot have an exhaustive knowledge of God. But we can know Him as he has revealed Himself to his creatures. Failing to include worship of the Holy Spirit as a vital part of the essence of God seriously misses the mark. It would be no different than worshiping the Holy Spirit and God the Father and neglecting Jesus. They are coequal parts of the Godhead. We do not get to choose which parts of the Godhead we will esteem and worship.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

We must not neglect the central reason for our existence which is to worship and love our creator. In order to please Him we must worship rightly. That means knowing Gods nature. Of course we cannot have an exhaustive knowledge of God. But we can know Him as he has revealed Himself to his creatures. Failing to include worship of the Holy Spirit as a vital part of the essence of God seriously misses the mark. It would be no different than worshiping the Holy Spirit and God the Father and neglecting Jesus. They are coequal parts of the Godhead. We do not get to choose which parts of the Godhead we will esteem and worship.

But again, it is not starkly evident that we can know his precise nature, or that we need to. This differs from the subject of Jesus' coming, wherein it IS starkly evident that he, and his Apostles, prophesied that he would return within the lifetimes of certain of his hearers.

But unlike the dogmatic Trinitarians, I do not hold that the timing of Jesus' return is a salvation issue.

[Gatormb]

Don't think the timing of Jesus' return is a salvation issue with Trinitarians. Serious question Dream (ol' buddy): Are the Mormon's & Jehovah's Witness's understanding of the Trinity an issue with you?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Gatormb

Don't think the timing of Jesus' return is a salvation issue with Trinitarians. Serious question Dream (ol' buddy): Are the Mormon's & Jehovah's Witness's understanding of the Trinity an issue with you?

Good, maybe they'll back off on the Trinity then. And I am quite unlike the JW's and Mormons in that I am agnostic on the issue, whereas they are as dogmatic in their anti-Trinitarian stance as many Christians are in their Trinitarian stance.

[Gatormb]

Not so much they are dogmatic but they have a misunderstanding of who the Son is (unlike your understanding). I'm sure you agree Jesus and the Father are one?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Gatormb

Not so much they are dogmatic but they have a misunderstanding of who the Son is (unlike your understanding). I'm sure you agree Jesus and the Father are one?

Yes ... whatever that means.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'm not really interested in debating the Trinity. As far as I'm concerned, both sides have good arguments. I'm saying that I don't have to decide on an issue that is far from being starkly evident. I believe that God is well able to deliver me without my understanding the precise substance of his nature.

I could understand why.

Jesus promised that if He went away, He would send the Comforter, Paracletos, Advocate - Holy Spirit - who would walk with us and advocate for us, until His return. That is the way we "know" and experience the resurrected Christ. Paul's theology makes this clear in multiple passages, and Acts, as quoted by WGF above, shows that a monumental event occurred soon after Jesus' ascension, confirming the presence in this reality, of that very Spirit.

For your "He's back" to work, that view would apparently tumble the relevant passages and promise together into a undifferentiated spiritual jambalaya. (Yes, I know, the relevant passage below is only from the Gospel of John, and not from the synoptics ).

So the question begs - and setting aside for the moment the nagging questions about the persistence of evil and the intransigence of the fallen world . . . and also how no Disciple "standing there" ever acknowledged to any other person, witnessing the returned Christ (or anybody else, for that matter, except the imaginers) - how is it that, in the "already returned" world you live in, a preterist is convinced that Jesus is the Christ ?

There has to be a confirmatory, spiritual link-up some way or another, commonly experienced by all believers, from which they all have and share the same "knowledge" of who Christ is. What is that operative, spiritual dynamic in the "returned Christ" world ?

For the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit folks, the simple answer is that the scriptures regarding the Holy Spirit encapsulate the dynamic that Jesus promised. Whether it is a necessary belief for salvation is not the best question, IMO; whether the Trinitarian theory seems to be the most complete explanation for the condition of the world until Christ's return, how we are to be connected to Him in the mean time, and the complete answer for what ought to be obvious to everyone who has actually been "born again" in spirit and truth, is the better one.

John 14:16-21

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁶ And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— ¹⁷ the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. ¹⁸ I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. ¹⁹ Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. ²⁰ On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. ²¹ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

[Dreamliner]

As far as I can see you need to be comforted ... from scripture.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Yes, but we already knew you were happy with the down payment.

That was quick. And shallow, but I do understand.

And you have no evidence for the consummation of the deal.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

As far as I can see you need to be comforted ... from scripture.

Well, when we hear from the "I was just standing there," crowd, we'll all be convinced on your theory - that does not exist in scripture.

So . . . let's hear some more of your deep exegesis and theological insight. We'll be here . . . until He returns.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

That was quick. And shallow, but I do understand.

And you have no evidence for the consummation of the deal.

I don't see any evidence that any evidence I adduced would mollify your thumb-sucking tendencies. It is what it is is not enough for you.

Or, put another way, I bear no burden to prove a point the Bible does not make.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I don't see any evidence that any evidence I adduced would mollify your thumb-sucking tendencies. It is what it is is not enough for you.

Or, put another way, I bear no burden to prove a point the Bible does not make.

And that is the only view of the "He has already returned" theory that I could agree with you on.

I appreciate your capitulation.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

And that is the only view of the "He has already returned" theory that I could agree with you on.

I appreciate your capitulation.

I know. And the reason you don't agree that he's returned is because you're clearly not happy with his results.

You're not alone though. The Pharisees weren't happy with him either.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I know. And the reason you don't agree that he's returned is because you're clearly not happy with his results.

You're not alone though. The Pharisees weren't happy with him either.

I will go ahead and speak for God on this one (hope you are sitting down, here goes):

I am not done with what you think are the final "results."

Funny you mentioned the Pharisees; after all, they were the guys who exceedingly thought they understood the scriptures had it all neat, tidy, and right . . . but didn't. You know, kind of like you.

But, tell you what. I am perfectly willing to wait until He returns to find out just exactly who is "right." I don't really care one way or the other - while readily admitting that I will probably have to take some remedial but instantaneous courses in "Oh, now I understand" on certain topics - but you seem to have a major, intransigent, stubborn, and egotistical investment in the issue.

Carry on.

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Funny you mentioned the Pharisees; after all, they were the guys who exceedingly thought they understood the scriptures had it all neat, tidy, and right . . . but didn't.

The institutional church is full of Pharisees.