Gator Country

secgator · 02-02-2013, 04:20 PM

All these proponents of Moss--Sanders--Deion--etc, still comes down to what I said earlier and most everyone else in here has elaborated on: The BIG friggin picture, NOT just a few highlights. While Moss has made some awesome catches, mostly deep threat type---and Sanders is known for his elisive jitterbug highlights, and NOT sustained consistency--and Deion for his returns(although many of them hauling ass out of bounds so as to not get hit)....in the huge, overall scheme....none of them come close to the true great ones. Highlights don't make the greatness--consistency, longevity, productiveness and endurance all factor in to the truly greatest.

Put together a team and choose a WR and a RB, and I can guarantee the overwhelming majority of people with a functioning, rational and reasoning mind would put Rice and Emmitt on that team way, way, way before putting Moss and Barry. Only a few totally biased people would even consider the Moss/Sanders/etc of the world as their elite team over the others.

sleeze · 02-02-2013, 04:42 PM

I would take Rice....Barry, a Decent Fullback and a oline.

I am not taking anything from Emmitt though.. in my eyes u could be successful with Barry or Smith.

**Minister_of_Information** · 02-02-2013, 04:53 PM

To me, Smith maximized every carry like no other, which as some have mentioned is how drives are established. I think his combination of vision, balance, and lower body strength is superior to any other back in NFL history, and his understanding of space, momentum, and cutting is very nearly on par with Sanders. Also he is the best blocking RB in NFL history, which is an easily overlooked element of the success of a play action team like the Cowboys. How many passes to Irvin and Harper would have happened if Emmitt doesn't land a devastating block on a LB or free blitzer, even a stunting DE?

1984Gator · 02-02-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitelakegator

Is this the same Smith that held out and left his team in a lurch?

Weird.

Sanders retired for a myriad of reasons. Being from Detroit he isn't close to the evil person you try to make him out to be. You should Google this because you might learn something about him. Barry would own the rushing title had he continued.

Smith held out 2 games as a rookie like many many other rookies. Big difference! Sanders signed a contract extrension, pocketed the bonus and retired without returning the money.

1984Gator · 02-02-2013, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FearNoSpear

Maybe. Same could be said for Jim Brown and it wouldn't matter. longevity plays in to it though. Fact is he did retire. Barry has great numbers but you couldn't build a team around him. You couldn't ride him for a drive the way you could the other great backs. For every 80 yd Houdini run he piled up a bunch of negative plays. On paper the long runs made up for it. What doesn't show is all of the 3 and outs and short drives. He was electric for sure. Great to watch. I can name 20 other rb's I'd rather have on my team though. There's a reason Barry only went to the playoffs one time in an era where teams literally rode their RB to the playoffs.

Yes, this is the correct assessment!

JohnC1908 · 02-02-2013, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1984Gator

Smith held out 2 games as a rookie like many many other rookies. Big difference! Sanders signed a contract extrension, pocketed the bonus and retired without returning the money.

Smith wasn't a rookie when he held out.

NoahBeanBizzel · 02-02-2013, 06:34 PM

Sanders was the best running back I ever saw play the game. The guy didn't average two yards per carry for an entire game, with two sixty-yard gains to "pad his stats". I don't know where that's coming from, but every time I saw him play he was amazing. You guys think Randy Moss played on some mediocre teams? The Vikings had the talent to make a run to the playoffs every year. I bet nobody on this board can name another player (besides Lomas Brown) that Sanders played with without looking it up. His offensive line was a disgrace.

I've never seen somebody cut like Sanders. I realize that Sayers had that type of ability, but I never had a chance to see anything but highlights of him. Emmitt had great vision, but he did NOT have the ability to explode in and out of cuts the way Sanders did. To me, there is no comparison there. Stats aside, when you look at what Sanders really accomplished, on a losing team with a losing mentality, what he did was absolutely mind-boggling.

**Minister_of_Information** · 02-02-2013, 06:50 PM

I agree that Sanders had superior cutting ability, but I think Smith understood how to utilize the space and momentum and his quickness and balance to maximize his gains about as well as Sanders. He just wasn't playing with the same tools in terms of cutting and explosion, but the overall North and South effect may have been even better if Smith was better at limiting his losses. As some have said, getting a consistent 4 yards is the foundation of a scoring drive, while running back and forth and giving up territory trying to make more space as Sanders often did might lead to higher YPC but fewer drives sustained and points scored. Of course, it helps if you have a Hall of Fame surrounding cast, but I'm interested in the idea that Smith was more consistent than Sanders and therefore more effective.

Tasselhoff · 02-02-2013, 07:06 PM

There are several rb I would place ahead of barry and emmitt.
There are no wr I would place ahead of rice.

NoahBeanBizzel · 02-02-2013, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

I agree that Sanders had superior cutting ability, but I think Smith understood how to utilize the space and momentum and his quickness and balance to maximize his gains about as well as Sanders. He just wasn't playing with the same tools in terms of cutting and explosion, but the overall North and South effect may have been even better if Smith was better at limiting his losses. As some have said, getting a consistent 4 yards is the foundation of a scoring drive, while running back and forth and giving up territory trying to make more space as Sanders often did might lead to higher YPC but fewer drives sustained and points scored. Of course, it helps if you have a Hall of Fame surrounding cast, but I'm interested in the idea that Smith was more consistent than Sanders and therefore more effective.

There's no doubt in my mind that Smith would've wound up in the Hall of Fame on almost any franchise that would've have drafted him. He was great. Great vision, hit the hole very well, did a lot of the little things right, and was just a great back. However, the skeptic looks at the line Sanders had, and asks if there is anyone during that era that would've done what he did in a Lions uniform. How many of Sanders' two or three-yard gains would've been turned into ten to fifteen-yard gains with Smith, Allen, Tuinei, Stepnoski, and Nate Newton blocking for him? Plus Johnston as his lead blocker out of a two-back set?

I mean, let that soak in. And we're not even talking about the luxury of having Aikman, Harper and Irvin to take the ability for any defense to key in on the running game. Sanders was pretty much what the Lions had. And he still would've broken the record with just one more season.

1984Gator · 02-02-2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnC1908

Smith wasn't a rookie when he held out.

He did hold out 2 weeks for a contract in his rookie year. That practice was really common in that era.

1984Gator · 02-02-2013, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahBeanBizzel

There's no doubt in my mind that Smith would've wound up in the Hall of Fame on almost any franchise that would've have drafted him. He was great. Great vision, hit the hole very well, did a lot of the little things right, and was just a great back. However, the skeptic looks at the line Sanders had, and asks if there is anyone during that era that would've done what he did in a Lions uniform. How many of Sanders' two or three-yard gains would've been turned into ten to fifteen-yard gains with Smith, Allen, Tuinei, Stepnoski, and Nate Newton blocking for him? Plus Johnston as his lead blocker out of a two-back set?

I mean, let that soak in. And we're not even talking about the luxury of having Aikman, Harper and Irvin to take the ability for any defense to key in on the running game. Sanders was pretty much what the Lions had. And he still would've broken the record with just one more season.

And how many carries would he have had on a good team with other viable offensive weapons? we're not knocking Barry on this thread as much as we are saying Emmitt was better. Barry woulda coulda shoulda but didn't. He walked out on his team and pocketed a signing bonus that he didn't earn. He didn't play as long and didn't gain as many yards. He also didn't win much. Emmitt was a team player on great teams. Barry was a great individual player but team player?

demosthenes · 02-02-2013, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1984Gator

Smith held out 2 games as a rookie like many many other rookies. Big difference! Sanders signed a contract extrension, pocketed the bonus and retired without returning the money.

Sanders played 2 years under that contract. Look it up.

demosthenes · 02-02-2013, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1984Gator

And how many carries would he have had on a good team with other viable offensive weapons? we're not knocking Barry on this thread as much as we are saying Emmitt was better. Barry woulda coulda shoulda but didn't. He walked out on his team and pocketed a signing bonus that he didn't earn. He didn't play as long and didn't gain as many yards. He also didn't win much. Emmitt was a team player on great teams. Barry was a great individual player but team player?

How was Barry not a team player? This should be rich.

tilly · 02-02-2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GATORAZ

Tilly is WR the only position in football where you believe there is an undisputed number 1 of all time?

Nope. Punter. Ray Guy. Maybe Anthony Munoz and LT as well.

I think there is very little split consensus on WR and Punter. After that you'll get valid arguments at almost every position.

**Minister_of_Information** · 02-02-2013, 09:24 PM

There's an argument at OLB?

1984Gator · 02-02-2013, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demosthenes

Sanders played 2 years under that contract. Look it up.

Barry was taken to arbitration after he walked out on his team and kept the signing bonus. The arbitrator rules that Barry had to repay the team for each year under the contract that he did not play. Barry held out until the last minute before returning the money without any communication whatsoever. If this is your hero then fine but I thnk his behavior displays very poor character.