Why is Florida better without Bradley Beal and Erving Walker?

[Jonas]

Eh, I don't think he was defensive liability. Donovan has not played players if they were defensive liabilities (Rosario last year, Prather when he would turn the ball over every minute). Erving was a pesky defender that would come up with a decent amount of steals and could deny his player the ball. I'm not saying he was a great defensive player, but he did enough to still be a "net positive" given his offensive ability.

[gatormann]

Beal may be an NBA talent but you have to break down how he actually performed during the season as a freshman at Florida. Beal was very unselfish with the ball and as a freshman determined to fit into the team concept he deferred his offense for much of the season. Admirably he played big minutes and was a willing and solid defender but not a standout. Despite his high school reputation as a knock down shooter he was actually pretty inconsistent from downtown until later in the year. His greatest asset to the team for much of the regular season was his willingness to stick his nose in there and rebound. While Beal was capable of doing the spectacular, on occassion, it was only when the tournament time came that he began to emerge as the "go to scorer."

Rosario, Yuguette, Prather and Frazier have all played the 3 in the Gator lineup this year. When Yugette filled the role earlier, he brought more rebounding and better defense to the position. Rosario has supplied similar offense and defense and the rebounding was largely picked up by others when he plays. Prather brings similar athleticism and similar rebounding. He, like Beal, has a flair for the spectacular. Frazier brings better shooting and similar rebounding.

What I am saying is that Beal's production has actually been matched or surpassed by the combination of players that demanded almost all of the minutes at last season. What may be missed is Beal's physical dominance that allowed him to prevail in the tournament when other Gator scoring options were stifled. For now, I say the position is at least a wash with Wilbekin's playmaking skills and defensive prowess make him an upgrade on Walker (who I still think the world of).

[born2beagator]

I also think the loss to KSU had something to do with it. IMO it woke them up

[oneatatime]

Originally Posted by SeabeeGator

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

Wilbekin, Young, Murphy, Yuguette and Rosario have all improved from last year, but come tournament time, we will have to win the close ones against the elite teams.

If Will hadn't been injured, we would have likely been a final four team last year.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

The same people on here who like to refer to Erv as a zero sum player also refuse to give him any credit for the teams improvement year to year when he was the starter. He took over for perhaps the best pure point guard in team history and took a team that had gone NIT two years in a row to the NCAA second round, then Elite 8 and followed it up with another elite 8, you can't have it both ways, you can't say this years team is better than last years team because Erv is gone and not recognize that the teams he was on got better each year as well. Those of you who think we would have made Elite 8 last year if Erv was hurt or otherwise missed any significant time have short memories of how timid Scotty was running the offense,of how bad Rosario was on defense and with working within the flow of the offense and of how Prather looked like a deer in the headlights when the ball would rotate to him for the better part of the year. A year later and those guys have all improved significantly, as one should expect them to given Donovan's history, and along with a healthy Will and a motivated, healthy Young and the addition of a guy like Frazier who up to this point has shot better than Beal did in the same # of games we are playing much better team ball. We, however, have lost the only two close games that we have been in and we are susceptible to good pressure defense, will this team be able to beat a Virginia type team as handily as last years team did in the tourney? I like to think we will improve against the press as the season goes on and we will surpass last years team and make it to the final four, we should have a better record and a better seed and we should win the SEC tourney as there is no tough UK or Vandy team standing in our way but lets win at UT and at Rupp and make an Elite 8 before we start carrying this team around on our shoulders.

[fox]

Originally Posted by SeabeeGator

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

We are a better team this year. If you base success solely on tournament performance then you have been trapped. If you have an urge to gnaw off your own arm, try instead to enjoy one game at a time. This season is such a joy and a privilege to see. But you have to be here.

[rserina]

Originally Posted by SeabeeGator

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

No way you judge the quality of a team on the basis of whether we win one more game in the tourney or not. That may determine the success of the season, but not the quality of the team.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

The same people on here who like to refer to Erv as a zero sum player also refuse to give him any credit for the teams improvement year to year when he was the starter. He took over for perhaps the best pure point guard in team history and took a team that had gone NIT two years in a row to the NCAA second round, then Elite 8 and followed it up with another elite 8, you can't have it both ways, you can't say this years team is better than last years team because Erv is gone and not recognize that the teams he was on got better each year as well. Those of you who think we would have made Elite 8 last year if Erv was hurt or otherwise missed any significant time have short memories of how timid Scotty was running the offense,of how bad Rosario was on defense and with working within the flow of the offense and of how Prather looked like a deer in the headlights when the ball would rotate to him for the better part of the year. A year later and those guys have all improved significantly, as one should expect them to given Donovan's history, and along with a healthy Will and a motivated, healthy Young and the addition of a guy like Frazier who up to this point has shot better than Beal did in the same # of games we are playing much better team ball. We, however, have lost the only two close games that we have been in and we are susceptible to good pressure defense, will this team be able to beat a Virginia type team as handily as last years team did in the tourney? I like to think we will improve against the press as the season goes on and we will surpass last years team and make it to the final four, we should have a better record and a better seed and we should win the SEC tourney as there is no tough UK or Vandy team standing in our way but lets win at UT and at Rupp and make an Elite 8 before we start carrying this team around on our shoulders.

In regards to last year's team I will grant you every one of your points.

but the team from 2 years ago. their success was not determined or enhanced by Walker. He hurt that team overall.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

In regards to last year's team I will grant you every one of your points.

but the team from 2 years ago. their success was not determined or enhanced by Walker. He hurt that team overall.

Ridiculous - what were our other options at point that year - a 17 year old - that's it - again Erv gets hurt and that team doesn't even make the tourney

[tegator80]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

Ridiculous - what were our other options at point that year - a 17 year old - that's it - again Erv gets hurt and that team doesn't even make the tourney

Yes, I wish these Erv (and Dan) wern't good posts would die. The main reason why these players were in play to get the less-than-stellar evaluations is because...the options to use someone else was limited.

[alietigator]

Originally Posted by madgator

In regards to last year's team I will grant you every one of your points.

but the team from 2 years ago. their success was not determined or enhanced by Walker. He hurt that team overall.

This is ridiculous. Do you even remember that team at all. Lets refresh your memory. Think back to the game against UCLA in the tourney. Parsons couldn't make a play at all, boynton was a turnover and missed shot machine, and Macklin couldn't make a free throw and was in foul trouble. Walker beat UCLA by himself. End of point. Everyone thinks of the butler game that walker and boynton lost. But we wouldn't have even made it that far without walker... Zero sum, what a joke. Everyone also likes to blame walker and boynton for the butler game, and they def deserve it, but no one puts any blame on parsons. He played a horrible game.

These arguments need to stop. The walker bashers forget there were no other options and Scotty was not 10% the player he is now back then.

[gatorrick1]

Really sad how many people on here just don't get it. All this talk about how we are better offensively because we move the ball better and take better shots and other stuff has little to do with why we are better minus those two guys at this point in the season.

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country. As someone that has coached and tried to teach a team how to defend the multitude of offenses that get thrown out at you I can't stress enough how important it is to have older players. Teaching defending on ball screens takes seasons. Figuring out how to hedge, how long to hedge how to rotate behin the hedge etc takes time. PY, EM, MR are playing better team defense then they ever have before. SW, KB and WY are all strong defenders and all of these guys are upperclassmen. Unless you have an amazing shot blocker like A Davis protecting the rim it's hard to be good defensively without having 5 guys on the floor that get it, understand rotations and box out responsibilities.

We are better for one reason, we play great team defense and our staff has done an amazing job of getting all of our guys to buy in because it only takes one man breaking down to give up easy baskets. Now while I agree that at this point in the season we are better than at this point in the season last year lets wait and see how we play the rest of the year. All great coaches like Billy don't want their teams to peak in January. They want them primed for March and last years team made it to the elite eight and were pretty damned good so let's sit back and see what happens with this group. I am really enjoying the effort, but its a long season.

[gatordd]

without Brad no without Erv yes... he is/was and always will be a liability on D.

[SmootyGator]

I don't think that it's necessarily that we're better without them, I just think that this team is (or at least looks) better than that team was. I think it has to do more with Wilbekin stepping up, EMurph getting physical in the paint (happened at the end of last year), and Prather's game slowing down a bit (also happened after the UK dunk last year). I really think that losing Yuegette last year cancelled out the improvements by EMurph and Prather (in terms of how good we were as a team), but now that he's back, we're seeing it. I also think that Frazier has done a great job filling in for some of the things that Beal did. Frazier actually has shot better than Beal did, so far, and rebounds pretty well too.

Hopefully we can get over our injuries, and get hot at the right time and make a run for some rings!!!

[gulfgator]

Love this team, I love the way they play D, . I think they are playing more as a team this year and definitely have sold out on on defense more than any team I have seen including 94 and the 04s, which is the real difference maker.

Beal would still be the best player on the court and I still can't dismiss TWO great 8s(one with Beal, ) as a barometer on how good this team will be ultimately , especially at the halfway point in conference play. hard not to argue that the competition is weaker this year, no doubt in my mind, but we are blowing people out. I actually "think" this team is better, but I'd be lying if I said I was sure of it, yet.

[GothamGator]

As usual, RSerina makes the right point. These guys are veterans, and it shows.

Our offense has been terrific, but our defense is what's really great. And - that is NOT coming from individual players being strong one-on-one defenders. It is coming from great team defense. Our rotations and help defense have been incredible all season. These guys are great at anticipating the next pass and rotating to help when needed. That comes from being an experienced member of the team and putting in great effort.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by alietigator

This is ridiculous. Do you even remember that team at all. Lets refresh your memory. Think back to the game against UCLA in the tourney. Parsons couldn't make a play at all, boynton was a turnover and missed shot machine, and Macklin couldn't make a free throw and was in foul trouble. Walker beat UCLA by himself. End of point. Everyone thinks of the butler game that walker and boynton lost. But we wouldn't have even made it that far without walker... Zero sum, what a joke. Everyone also likes to blame walker and boynton for the butler game, and they def deserve it, but no one puts any blame on parsons. He played a horrible game.

These arguments need to stop. The walker bashers forget there were no other options and Scotty was not 10% the player he is now back then.

Boynton the turnover machine with his 1 turnover?

Parsons missed shot after shot after shot? He only took 8 shots, hit 3 of them. Was never really able to get into the flow of the game. A typical issue that season that was not of his fault.

Macklin played really well in that game. Tyus really was getting after it as well. I give Tyus a good bit of the credit for that win.


But to me that was a fairly typical Walker game. Dominated the ball. Never really got his perimeter team mates into the flow of the game. Forced a lot of plays. Killed momentum a bunch of times when we were primed and ready to rip the game open. (how many 8 point leads went right back to 2-3?) He made a few really nice hustle plays. Pulled garbage out of his butt to save himself (which for some reason people get impressed with). Made the game closer than it really needed to be and then he made his free throws down the stretch to put the game away.

should've been a double digit win with little issue. we had UCLA outclassed

and what I was saying all along two years ago is that SW to me had obvious talent to be a true point guard and because we really didn't have one, we should've played him a lot more earlier in the season as we would be better off in the long run. Interesting to note that SW played less minutes as a sophomore than he did as a frosh. curious.

10% of what he is today? not so sure about that. just the result of experience, confidence and physical maturity. But we didn't NEED SW of today two years ago. We just needed someone who played stout perimeter D (which he did even then) and a basic initiator of the offense.

I said it in early January 2011 that our team needed to revolve around Parsons working the ball from the inside/out. Our front court was the best in the country. Despite the fact that CP won SEC player of the year and proving to be an NBA of all-star capability, he was 3rd on our team in shot attempts that year.....3rd (and he was only 2 Macklin shots from being 4th). And considering that he probably got 1-2 shot attempts per game off the offensive glass, that tells me that our guards had a problem getting him into the offense as they should have.

CP was massively under-utilized. WHY? so that Walker could pump up 11 shots a game? I also put a good bit of blame on KB as well for this. He took almost 33% more shots than Parsons did that year.....inexcusable. but still, the PG needs to be accountable for the teams actions. which was another Walker weakness as a PG. Kid never seemed to say a word to anyone, ever.

Macklin (an NBA center) was also incredibly under-utilized that season. WHY?

I could always deal with KB cause because of his defense, ability to score in the paint, that he doesn't over-dribble or get into bad situations. Yes, he takes bad shots every now and again. But that alone doesn't put a guy in my dog house.

a point guard not knowing how to utilize and maximize his team mates and stubbornly pursuing his own agenda....yeah, that bothers me a whole bunch.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by gatorrick1

Really sad how many people on here just don't get it. All this talk about how we are better offensively because we move the ball better and take better shots and other stuff has little to do with why we are better minus those two guys at this point in the season.

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country. As someone that has coached and tried to teach a team how to defend the multitude of offenses that get thrown out at you I can't stress enough how important it is to have older players. Teaching defending on ball screens takes seasons. Figuring out how to hedge, how long to hedge how to rotate behin the hedge etc takes time. PY, EM, MR are playing better team defense then they ever have before. SW, KB and WY are all strong defenders and all of these guys are upperclassmen. Unless you have an amazing shot blocker like A Davis protecting the rim it's hard to be good defensively without having 5 guys on the floor that get it, understand rotations and box out responsibilities.

when your offense is more efficient, shooting at a better % (particularly from the 3pt line), your defense is going to play better not just for the reasons you listed above (all great points btw) but also because you are going to give up a lot less transition opportunities.

this team is actually taking less shots per game and scoring more points per game than the last two seasons. tells me that the team is able to dictate the pace of play on their opponents.

a lot less possessions per game on both offense and defense. which at the college level is a recipe for success. especially when you are shooting almost 50% from the floor as a team.

this is beautiful basketball!

something we really haven't seen in quite a few years and you don't need future NBA stars to do it.

[ufgator4ever]

Originally Posted by SeabeeGator

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

Bingo. Who will step up and perform like beal in close tourney games? The secis so awful, not sure we'll know how good this team is until late march.

[alietigator]

Originally Posted by madgator

Boynton the turnover machine with his 1 turnover?

Parsons missed shot after shot after shot? He only took 8 shots, hit 3 of them. Was never really able to get into the flow of the game. A typical issue that season that was not of his fault.

Macklin played really well in that game. Tyus really was getting after it as well. I give Tyus a good bit of the credit for that win.


But to me that was a fairly typical Walker game. Dominated the ball. Never really got his perimeter team mates into the flow of the game. Forced a lot of plays. Killed momentum a bunch of times when we were primed and ready to rip the game open. (how many 8 point leads went right back to 2-3?) He made a few really nice hustle plays. Pulled garbage out of his butt to save himself (which for some reason people get impressed with). Made the game closer than it really needed to be and then he made his free throws down the stretch to put the game away.

should've been a double digit win with little issue. we had UCLA outclassed

and what I was saying all along two years ago is that SW to me had obvious talent to be a true point guard and because we really didn't have one, we should've played him a lot more earlier in the season was getting as we would be better off in the long run.

10% of what he is today? not so sure about that. just the result of experience, confidence and physical maturity. But we didn't NEED SW of today two years ago. We just needed someone who played stout perimeter D (which he did even then) and a basic initiator of the offense.

I said it in early January 2011 that our team needed to revolve around Parsons working the ball from the inside/out. Our front court was the best in the country. Despite the fact that CP won SEC player of the year and proving to be an NBA of all-star capability, he was 3rd on our team in shot attempts that year.....3rd (and he was only 2 Macklin shots from being 4th). And considering that he probably got 1-2 shot attempts per game off the offensive glass, that tells me that our guards had a problem getting him into the offense as they should have.

CP was massively under-utilized. WHY? so that Walker could pump up 11 shots a game? I also put a good bit of blame on KB as well for this. He took almost 33% more shots than Parsons did that year.....inexcusable. but still, the PG needs to be accountable for the teams actions. which was another Walker weakness as a PG. Kid never seemed to say a word to anyone, ever.

Macklin (an NBA center) was also incredibly under-utilized that season. WHY?

I could always deal with KB cause because of his defense, ability to score in the paint, that he doesn't over-dribble or get into bad situations. Yes, he takes bad shots every now and again. But that alone doesn't put a guy in my dog house.

a point guard not knowing how to utilize and maximize his team mates and stubbornly pursuing his own agenda....yeah, that bothers me a whole bunch.

I cant believe I just read that. You have been taking stats and turning them to your point for the past 3 years but avoiding the obvious stats..
First I never said tyus didn't play well. You say Parsons was Ok because he was 3-8. 2 of those made feild goals were lay ups and he missed his only 3 and was 1-2 from free throw. He played way under par. Maklin couldnt make a free throw and was in foul trouble the whole game. Thats why he never hit his potential because BD didn't trust him at the end of games due to free throws. Young actually played well that game because of macklins foul problems. Boynton only had 1 turnover but was 3-9 and his misses were momentum killers, not walker's.

Now for walkers stats. So walker had an average game for his standards??? WOW. He was 5-8 FG, 3-5 on 3s, 8-10 for free throws and 1 turnover. I guess his 3 misses were real momentum killers. This is why you are a joke when it comes to walker. he played one of the best games of anyone in the tournament, but it was just average because we should have won by 15, and thats all walkers fault.

There is no was wilbiken in 2011 could have helped if he got more minutes. He could barely dribble the ball up the court. Defense was always great, but the offense was terrible when he ran it that year.

Walker had so many faults and crappy games, but you will never say he did anything above average.