Why is Florida better without Bradley Beal and Erving Walker?

[InstiGATOR1]

An interesting and around here very controversial discussion has popped up around the internet. Here is the first paragraph:

Our friends at Our Two Bits came through with the most provocative Gators read of the week, with Paul Sjoberg penning a piece asking whether Florida's better without Bradley Beal. It's an interesting thesis, but I found it sort of poorly-supported, and I don't agree with the argument as much as I do the thesis.

and here is the link:

http://www.alligatorarmy.com/2013/1/...-erving-walker

[oneatatime]

I don't have the stats to prove it, but Walker got many of his points at the foul line at the end of in close games.

Scottie hasn't had to face that pressure yet and I hope he can come through

[gogators73]

IMO it is efficiency.

Beal >> Rosario. But Rosario has gotten MUCH better at playing within the offense. He still makes questionable decisions but he is much better at keeping us in a rhythm. I would also venture to say Rosario has drawn more charges than anyone on the team.

Wilbekin > Walker. I love Erv and his effort but right now about the only thing I'd take him over SW with is breaking a press. Wilbekin is a VERY efficient scorer. Rarely takes bad shots and is a MUCH better defender than Walker (no fault of Erv, just height helps).

Last year Beal and Walker took big shots but they weren't always the shots that we've been getting this year. We still take a ton of 3's but this year they feel way more within the offense. Every now and then KB launches one or Rosario launches one I'd like to have back but I'd almost venture to say we've cut our bad shots in half. And our defense is just so much better without Walker out there. Great on ball defender but just too easy to shoot over him.

[tebowharvin]

According to efficiency ratings, yes. That is not saying Beal is not the best player if the past two years though.

[tegator80]

I am going with the conventional thinking: three seniors and two juniors of pretty good quality are a whole lot better than a younger team of somewhat similar skills. Kentucky of last year is going to be VERY hard to replicate in the future. Add in Casey continuing to let his game evolve and we have a team that just doesn't exist anymore (except for the Butlers of the world and then rarely).

[rserina]

Interesting discussion. The initial article--and in many respects the response--both follow from the wrong premise: it isn't so much the replacements for Beal and/or Walker, but the improvement of the other 6-7 guys in the rotation. Young and Murphy were both new starters last season playing by far their most minutes and they struggled sustaining intensity and adapting their games as the year progressed. This year, each has made massive improvements, whether it is Young's energy level, defensive focus, and improved low post moves or Murphy's pick and roll defense, ability to post up by putting the ball on the ground, or corner three.

The same is true for Yeguete. Donovan said he came in out of shape (some goofy comment about eating too many French pastries) and when he did work himself into shape he got hit by injuries. This year, he came in ripped and much stronger and has added that little dribble drive move from the top of the key as well as the jumper he didn't use at all his first two seasons. When you have two new starters in the post, and their only backup is new to the rotation, you can expect to struggle some unless they are all elite caliber players.

In general, if I had to make an argument it would be one of increased experience and familiarity. The same thing happened in 2010-11. We were a ten seed that was a miracle three against NC State from possibly not making the tournament and we transformed into league championship winning Elite Eight team because each of those kids (three new starters, another at a new position) all learned from their experiences, improved their games, and developed better chemistry. The same thing happened this year to a team that returned seven of its top nine guys from a year ago, six of whom had double digit minutes on the year. The 2010 class may very well go down as the most successful in school history after the 2004 group.

I don't mean to discount the fact that Wilbekin is a significantly better defender than Walker and a more "natural" point guard (whatever that actual means, but I grant it nonetheless), or that the offensive pieces fit together better than they did a year ago when we were heavy on scoring-minded guards. But take away Walker and Beal from last year's team and we don't even make the tournament, let alone improve on their success. Take away one even one of them and we are significantly worse still.

[rserina]

Originally Posted by tegator80

...and we have a team that just doesn't exist anymore (except for the Butlers of the world and then rarely).

I think this is actually a great point and one I think about often. Even under the previous rules, it was hard to hold a team like ours together too long if you recruited a high level. Then we would go against an ostensibly less talented team with far more experience that played smarter, harder, and with more chemistry, especially in the tournament, and often lose. Kids age 18-22 who have the benefit of conditioning staffs, collegiate-level coaching, film and workout amenities, extra time to practice their games without seven hours of class per day, plus part time jobs, etc., stand to improve markedly with each year on campus.

There is no turning back the clock to a world in which such experience and continuity are prevalent, but we are fortunate enough to have a team with it right now and we are seeing the benefits. Just another reason not to too pessimistic about the lack of playing time for our current freshman or their perceived deficiencies at this stage of their careers.

[born2beagator]

IMHO, its simple: Maturity

[ApexNC]

Originally Posted by born2beagator

IMHO, its simple: Maturity

Agreed. Also, Murph has gone from greatly improved to an all-conference type of performer.

[ThePlayer]

Simple math...addition by subtraction.
And mostly because Wilbekin has developed into an attacking, efficient distributor of the basketball.
Everyone around Scottie has now picked up their game..like you would expect from the son-of-a-coach.

Throw in a more confident Will Yeguete...and voila...instant karma!!!

[SeabeeGator]

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

[gatordee]

I am sure this team would be even better with the two playing this year along with the added year behind them in BD's system. But you cannot beat continuity and this team continues to gel.

[GatorLurker]

How was Georgia better the year after Dominque Wilkens left? They went to the Final Four being led by Vern Fleming. Now, who is better: Wilkens or Fleming?

[UFish]

The guys still here have improved. Patric Young, who played hurt a lot last year, is blocking way more shots, staying out of foul trouble, and commanding the defense from the middle as well as any big man we've had the last several years. Rosario and Murphy have improved defensively and Mike, who Donovan himself said contributed very little to our team last year, has played a huge role filling the scoring void Beal left behind. All that and Yeguete is healthy.

As much as I loved Erving Walker, there's only so much of a defensive liability you can't be when you're playing DI basketball at 5'8, 170. We went from having a seriously limited defender starting in the backcourt and playing 30+ minutes a game to having an elite defender starting in the backcourt and playing 30+ minutes a game.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by oneatatime

I don't have the stats to prove it, but Walker got many of his points at the foul line at the end of in close games.

Scottie hasn't had to face that pressure yet and I hope he can come through

This is a big question mark for me too. It also is to my why Wilbekin is not scoring in double figures yet. But the bigger worry is will he knock down those FTs in crunch time at a high enough rate.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

This is a big question mark for me too. It also is to my why Wilbekin is not scoring in double figures yet. But the bigger worry is will he knock down those FTs in crunch time at a high enough rate.

well, big part of that is that we really haven't had too many close games. so the point is moot if you are winning by double digits every game. play the game with outstanding defense and a controlled/efficient offense and you will win games handidly.

a big complaint I had with our previous backcourt is that their decision making problems led to a lot of momentum killers. Quick 3s that many said would be "dagger shots" which turned into transition baskets for the other team. 7 point leads would immidiately become 5 point leads right down to 3.

so many games so often in the previous two seasons were way closer than they ever needed to be. A point I made regularly. zero sum in effect.

and I am becoming more and more convinced as this season progresses that we were the best team in the country two years ago.

why Billy let it go on is one of the great mysteries to me.

that and why Sam Robey didn't start and why Mike Gillissee had to wait until his senior year to be the man.

certain things are just so obvious and coaches for whatever reason can't see it.

they may be amazingly qualified geniuses at their craft, but they just don't see it

[corpgator]

There are two factors at play here.

First, Walker was a net minus. Many of you don't want to admit it, but his inappropriate shot selection, boneheaded turnovers, and small stature outweighed his sometimes clutch shot-making and assists. On defense, his size basically ruled out ever using a zone. Look how effective the zone has been this year. Yes, I'm going to get railed against here, but that's because very few actually give the proper weight to defense. It is half the game after all.

Second, replacing a star player doesn't require another star player. It only requires an average player plus a minor increase from every other player.

So that's what is at play here: a net positive from losing walker, an average (or better) replacement for Beal, plus improvement from everyone else.

[Jonas]

If Walker was a net minus, he wouldn't have played. PERIOD. Billy isn't an idiot. He chose to start Walker for 3 years. It amazes me that people will try and argue he was a detrement to our team. I'm fine with point pointing out his faults (and he had quite a few), but to call him a net minus player is wrong.

[cstgator]

Not so much that he was a minus as it is 2013 Wilbekin is much better than Erving Walker in any of his Gator seasons.

[corpgator]

I am not saying that Walker was a net minus vs any other option. As in you couldn't stick a replacement level player in there and get better results. But bring back Walker this year, and he is a net minus for this team. He was last year as well. It's just a basic human vice that we value offense more than defense.