Wages still aren't keeping up with inflation

[cocodrilo]

I keep hearing about all this money being printed, yet inflation remains low. Isn't this contrary to economic theory? I've been waiting for years now for my savings to be reduced to pennies in value. When is it going to happen?

[malligator]

Originally Posted by cocodrilo

I keep hearing about all this money being printed, yet inflation remains low. Isn't this contrary to economic theory? I've been waiting for years now for my savings to be reduced to pennies in value. When is it going to happen?

As soon as we stop bolstering the false economy with federal credit. The Dow (a metric) is doing well yet earnings across the board (the true value of the market) are lackluster at best. In other words, there's a whole lot of money and credit floating around making people more willing to buy something for more than it's actually worth. When Obama decides to put the country's AmEx away the market is going to crash. Why do you think he's fighting so damn hard to raise the debt ceiling? If the economy was truly doing well would he have to? No. He just needs to keep putting it on the plastic to keep up appearances.

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by GatorRade

I am a big proponent of education, so I am sympathetic to your view here. However, the more I look at the topic, the more skeptical I become of this notion. For sure, there are knowledge-based jobs which all out require advanced education (E.g. engineering), but it is difficult to establish education's relationship with most of the labor market.

I worry that we don't understand causality or that the effect of education is saturating. For example, let's say that the unemployment figures are 8% for those with high school education, 5% for those with bachelor's, 3% for those with masters, and 1% for those with PhDs (something similar to what figures I saw two years ago). Clearly, there is a correlation, but what is the causation? Do persons with PhD's have jobs because of the PhD? Or is it because they are persons with the capacity to obtain a PhD (a selection effect, rather than a treatment effect)?

On the idea of saturation of the market, what would happen if everybody went for one degree higher? Would our unemployment figures for each class stay the same, resulting in a big drop in our overall unemployment? OR would we see a washout due to increased labor competition? Might we see new unemployment figures that resemble this: 8% for bachelors, 5% for masters, 3% for PhDs? I believe that it would be highly unlikely to be the former. Perhaps over a long period of time we would see this new intellectual capital put to use, but almost surely not over the next few years.

All of this is to question one tenet of your post: Can a particular individual do sufficiently better by gaining more education? As a college educator, I'd like to think so, but I sure don't see any definitive evidence.

Love this article/blog and line...

http://libertarianchristians.com/201...on-be-handled/

"Once we keep in mind that education is not just “schooling,” we can begin to imagine ways that educating the poorest in a free society is not just a prediction but is feasible."

[108]

Originally Posted by mastoidbone

What changed since 1979????
Computers and information economy and trade and china---
Those skills are more valued then jobs in past like factory work--if all your value added skills can be repeated in china expect to be on that bottom curve---if you work hard and educate yourself chances are you are not on that bottom line---life is hard. Work hard. Study hard.

c'mon that's BS and you know it, upwards mobility is almost just a myth at this point

as seen by the productivity line, this isn't about not working hard

[108]

Originally Posted by Gatoragman

108, your graph obviously proves that the evil pubs are at fault and especially Bush, since we know they have been in total charge since 1979!!!!

its odd that a graph like that causes conservatives to deflect

its like, "hey we know our elected leaders policies have primarily been aimed at the 1%, but we are so entrenched in our party's ideology that we will defend it even if it hurts the majority of us"

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by 108

c'mon that's BS and you know it, upwards mobility is almost just a myth at this point

as seen by the productivity line, this isn't about not working hard

Now how could it be humanly possible for people to no longer gain upward mobility? Just think about that for moment, it makes absolutely no sense because it's something that's not static. In fact there is going to be plenty of it with baby boomers retiring.

[fredsanford]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

Now how could it be humanly possible for people to no longer gain upward mobility? Just think about that for moment, it makes absolutely no sense because it's something that's not static. In fact there is going to be plenty of it with baby boomers retiring.

The US now ranks something like 8th in the world for countries where children end up exceeding their parents' socioeconomic status. Why?

Because the last 30 years the bars on the economic ladder have been moved further and further apart by economic disparity.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by fredsanford

The US now ranks something like 8th in the world for countries where children end up exceeding their parents' socioeconomic status. Why?

Because the last 30 years the bars on the economic ladder have been moved further and further apart by economic disparity.

Got a link for that, and how was the data obtained?

[Gatoragman]

Link, we don't need no stinking links!!!!!!!
Blindly believe whatever he says!!!!!

[GatorRade]

Originally Posted by QGator2414

Love this article/blog and line...

http://libertarianchristians.com/201...on-be-handled/

"Once we keep in mind that education is not just “schooling,” we can begin to imagine ways that educating the poorest in a free society is not just a prediction but is feasible."

I'm definitely open to alternative methods and even goals for our educational system.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by GatorRade

I'm definitely open to alternative methods and even goals for our educational system.

You're on to something, but maybe not on the college level. There are some trades where people can make some very good money that are very specialized.

[JerseyGator01]

If a married couple in DC were both employed as lobbyists, they more than likely would be included in the 1%.

CORRUPTION RULES!!!!!

[mastoidbone]

which middle class jobs have been outsourced to save CEOs?
teachers?
engineers?
police?
plumber?
electrician?
accountant?
govt workers? (many of whom make WAY more then middle class)?


Lets see what HAS been outsourced?
Clothing?yep
operator?yep
assembly line?yep
customer support?

JOBS that can be done as well or better for less SHOULD be sent overseas----that is how you maximize WEALTH and returns---you know, do your job.

Those people who dont have skills gained from education have a REAL good incentive to get educated now dont they?

And what happens then???higher skilled labor force means MORE national wealth.......go figure.

What has happened to many americans is PUBLIC education has failed them--because public education is there to serve union workers---not kids...and the results reflect that.

[HALLGATOR]

Originally Posted by mastoidbone

which middle class jobs have been outsourced to save CEOs?
teachers?
engineers?
police?
plumber?
electrician?
accountant?
govt workers? (many of whom make WAY more then middle class)?


Lets see what HAS been outsourced?
Clothing?yep
operator?yep
assembly line?yep
customer support?

JOBS that can be done as well or better for less SHOULD be sent overseas----that is how you maximize WEALTH and returns---you know, do your job.

Those people who dont have skills gained from education have a REAL good incentive to get educated now dont they?

And what happens then???higher skilled labor force means MORE national wealth.......go figure.

What has happened to many americans is PUBLIC education has failed them--because public education is there to serve union workers---not kids...and the results reflect that.

This all sounds good but isn't it predicated on the idea there will be jobs available for those people who gain education? From there the next question would be does education in itself create any kind of wealth since a degree of wealth is needed to create more jobs.

One of the very issues we face today is a loss of jobs which equals a loss of revenue for a certain segment of society who have long been a backbone of this country. We didn't just outsource jobs to make the higher ups more money, we outsourced jobs so Americans could have more "things." Trouble is there is a consequence for the path we chose.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by GatorRade

I worry that we don't understand causality or that the effect of education is saturating. For example, let's say that the unemployment figures are 8% for those with high school education, 5% for those with bachelor's, 3% for those with masters, and 1% for those with PhDs (something similar to what figures I saw two years ago). Clearly, there is a correlation, but what is the causation? Do persons with PhD's have jobs because of the PhD? Or is it because they are persons with the capacity to obtain a PhD (a selection effect, rather than a treatment effect)?

Oh please. Causation is extremely clear. There are professions that have high remuneration and there are professions that don't. Well paid professions often require a good deal of education. But not always. And there are poorly paid professions, for argument's sake those that require a PHD in pottery, that might require a good deal of education. But most low paying jobs are low paying because they are not specialized.

[brainstorm]

Re-education or training in a new area is an issue in my mind. If you are a laborer in a plant that makes widgets and widgets can be made cheaper in another country and if the entire US industry is shutting down to move production to this country - what do you do now? Can you quickly train up in another field that needs workers? Or are you stuck with your now unneeded skill set?

[Matthanuf06]

Originally Posted by HALLGATOR

This all sounds good but isn't it predicated on the idea there will be jobs available for those people who gain education? From there the next question would be does education in itself create any kind of wealth since a degree of wealth is needed to create more jobs.

One of the very issues we face today is a loss of jobs which equals a loss of revenue for a certain segment of society who have long been a backbone of this country. We didn't just outsource jobs to make the higher ups more money, we outsourced jobs so Americans could have more "things." Trouble is there is a consequence for the path we chose.

What is the consequence? I mean I guess I get what you are saying. There is a consequence for everything. Getting in shape requires hours at the gym. An education hours of your nose in the books.

Isn't this basic comparative advantage?

[HALLGATOR]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

What is the consequence? I mean I guess I get what you are saying. There is a consequence for everything. Getting in shape requires hours at the gym. An education hours of your nose in the books.

Isn't this basic comparative advantage?

The consequence of jobs moved overseas to take advantage of cheap wages is loss of jobs here. As we want more and more there are only two ways to meet those "wants." The first is higher wages to afford more things and the second is to make what we want less expensive thus allowing the purchasing of more items on basically the same income. Of course you could add the use of credit, to meet the wants requirement, into the equation but credit is really nothing more than spending money you have yet to earn in most cases. Thus we wind up with a population with a lot of "wants" seeking the means to satisfy the same. If we look at employment as a means then we also have to look at the availability of employment.

The question I have, and others have touched on, centers around the availability of jobs. Have we created as many jobs percentage wise as we have lost? By "percentage wise" I mean to take into account population growth rather than a static number or a one-to-one ratio. Often we say "get an education," but does an education necessarily guarantee there are enough jobs to go around once the education is attained? An example would be if we took 10,000 people without a college education, educated them, then added their job needs to the work force. Does the education itself really do anything to create jobs or does it create a need for higher paying jobs due to the cost of the education and the mind-set that accompanies an education? That mind-set being one where the person who has gone through the education process believes they should now be able to earn more money than a person without a college education (on average).

[DaveFla]

Let me get this straight... We go out and print a whole bunch of money. Then, those in charge can't figure out why inflation is running away and all they can come up with is to complain that wages aren't keeping up?

Whose running this show? The three stooges?

[Matthanuf06]

Originally Posted by HALLGATOR

The consequence of jobs moved overseas to take advantage of cheap wages is loss of jobs here. As we want more and more there are only two ways to meet those "wants." The first is higher wages to afford more things and the second is to make what we want less expensive thus allowing the purchasing of more items on basically the same income. Of course you could add the use of credit, to meet the wants requirement, into the equation but credit is really nothing more than spending money you have yet to earn in most cases. Thus we wind up with a population with a lot of "wants" seeking the means to satisfy the same. If we look at employment as a means then we also have to look at the availability of employment.

The question I have, and others have touched on, centers around the availability of jobs. Have we created as many jobs percentage wise as we have lost? By "percentage wise" I mean to take into account population growth rather than a static number or a one-to-one ratio. Often we say "get an education," but does an education necessarily guarantee there are enough jobs to go around once the education is attained? An example would be if we took 10,000 people without a college education, educated them, then added their job needs to the work force. Does the education itself really do anything to create jobs or does it create a need for higher paying jobs due to the cost of the education and the mind-set that accompanies an education? That mind-set being one where the person who has gone through the education process believes they should now be able to earn more money than a person without a college education (on average).

And the advantage is a stronger economy and more wealth. The jobs you mentioned may be lost, but more open up. I hate to say it, but tough shit if you are in an obsolete area of the economy. Adapt or move. Protecting jobs where you do not have the comparative advantage hurts the nation dramatically. In fact you probably lose more jobs that way (bc they aren't created), but that isn't a nice sob story on CNN.

But in a round about way you hit the nail on the head. Americans want an upper middle class lifestyle regardless of their productivity. We need a realization that if you aren't productive and are poor then you need to live a poor lifestyle