Women in Combat Ban Lifted... Thoughts?

[uftaipan]

Originally Posted by Shade45

Let's see how this goes. How do Family Care Plans work now?

Elaborate. I have no idea what you're getting at.

[Minister_of_Information]

There cannot be relaxed standards for infantry and front line combat MOSs. Period.

There will be women that can hack it, but not many, and their presence could degrade the combat performance of the men in their unit. This is not about what's fair, never has been. This is about the life of the nation, and that must always be the determining criterion.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

It is a peculiar thing that the military is basically a left-wing experiment (a vast gov't jobs and job training program - steeped with affirmative action, gender neutrality, non discriminatory against sexual preference) that is fetishized by some on the right, and treated with anything from contempt to ambivalence by some on the left.

Institutionally speaking you are correct, but in terms of function the army is itself the precondition for and the salvation of the nation. To think otherwise is to sow the seeds of disaster.

[agigator]

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

There cannot be relaxed standards for infantry and front line combat MOSs. Period.

There will be women that can hack it, but not many, and their presence could degrade the combat performance of the men in their unit. This is not about what's fair, never has been. This is about the life of the nation, and that must always be the determining criterion.

I agree with most of what you're saying here...but I'd say this is more about the lives of those on the front lines in combat MOSs more than the life of our nation. And that should be just as noteworthy a priority for our nation IMO.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Maybe its just me, but I think more women on combat duty will actually improve the culture of the military. But even if it doesnt, its a volunteer force - you gotta be ok with what you're getting into, and you gotta hack it.

I don't get this mind set at all. Improve the culture of the military? That is the problem, the military is not your cultrue experiment, they are trained to be a killing machine.

[MichiGator2002]

I think the idea must be to "improve" the military culture for like-minded observers, not for those actually in the military. Like I said, the military is an ant farm for leftist ideologues -- it is a self-contained community that, but for very narrow and readily avoidable exceptions, has to obey the commands of the civil authority. You don't have to win their hearts and minds on liberal social policy, you can actually actively disregard their hearts and minds.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by uftaipan

Is this a serious argument or are you trying to be funny? I've been an officer for 14 years and have never once given nor have been given an order to "die". Being killed is an unfortunate effect of military service at times (as it is in other hazardous professions), but it is never the mission. To evoke the words of General Patton, a soldier's job is not to die for his country; it's to make the other som'bitch die for his.

The question with regard to woman in ground combat MOSs, then, is are women just as good at shooting, moving, carrying loads, and operating under stress as men. If the Pentagon is prepared to stipulate that those standards will be uniform, without respect to gender, then no problem. You will see no drop in performance. But there will also be very, very few women in ground combat roles.

If, however, we're going to play this game as it's been played elsewhere, and do cute little "adjustments" to the standards based on average physiological differences in order to artificially inflate the number of women in the infantry, then you're going to have problems. A drop in performance is one. An increase in resentment is another. Based on my experience, this is the more likely scenario. I hope I'm wrong.

Ir wasnt totally serious. If you can meet the job requirements (including the possibility of death), then gender, sexual preference or race shouldnt be barriers, just like on the outside.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

I don't get this mind set at all. Improve the culture of the military? That is the problem, the military is not your cultrue experiment, they are trained to be a killing machine.

People were saying it would make it worse, I was just saying I thought the opposite. "Culture" shouldnt be the primary consideration in any case. It shouldnt be the main case for keeping women out, or forcing them in without condsideration.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

People were saying it would make it worse, I was just saying I thought the opposite. "Culture" shouldnt be the primary consideration in any case. It shouldnt be the main case for keeping women out, or forcing them in without consideration.

A woman is not going to haul a wounded 200lb man on her shoulders. This is the worst conceivable idea this administration could ever do with the military and I believe it is just that by design. There is no other explanation for this asinine policy.

[WESGATORS]

Logically speaking, there doesn't need to be an explicit ban. As long as there is no quota, then I don't see the problem. Not to offend vets with a football analogy, but women are not banned from playing college football (or even NFL football), it's just that you don't have many that would even consider it a viable option for them; nor would they be considered a viable option for the teams. From a military perspective, you are increasing your available pool of participants...how can that be a bad thing? If the additional participants don't meet the standards then what is lost?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[108]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

This seems like a non-issue to me. If women want to make themselves equally available as men for cannon fodder duty for the Military-Industrial Complex, what is there to object to? If we're going to murder and oppress brown people overseas on behalf of multinational corporations, what difference does it make if it's a man or a woman doing the murdering and oppressing? Worrying about this and not the stupidity of the wars and occupations themselves is to miss the point anyway.

On a side note, many years ago I went through and read the personal memoirs of some of the famous German generals who served on the Eastern Front during WW2. One of the things that stood out to me was the way in which they all described the considerable fighting spirit and tenacity of the Soviet units with larger numbers of female soldiers. One of the generals, I can't remember which, spoke in an almost reverential tone about them. He basically said that female Soviet troops had a reputation with German troops for fighting like vicious, desperate rats. To capture them was dangerous, because, unlike the male Soviet troops, they were much more fearful of going into captivity. As such, they were more likely to pull a knife or explode a hidden grenade upon being captured.

That said, I doubt our female soldiers, who have been trained since birth to think of themselves as little, entitled princesses, minus all the self-esteem, are going to strike much fear into the hearts of our freedom fighter enemies.

agree with you here

[Spurffelbow833]

It took women longer than men to reach wargasm, but now they'll crave it just as much.

[reformedgator]

Why does it say about a country when a women is allowed to do its fighting?

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by reformedgator

Why does it say about a country when a women is allowed to do its fighting?

I dont know. That it is the setting of science fiction novel written in the late 1960s?

[HALLGATOR]

I was thinking along the line of "The only good bug is a dead bug."

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by HALLGATOR

I was thinking along the line of "The only good bug is a dead bug."

Mobile infantry has definitely made you the man you are today Hall...

[uftaipan]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Maybe its just me, but I think more women on combat duty will actually improve the culture of the military. But even if it doesnt, its a volunteer force - you gotta be ok with what you're getting into, and you gotta hack it.

Please be more specific. What elements of United States military culture are in need of improvement? And are these improvements designed to make it better at its mission or do you have some other purpose in mind?

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by uftaipan

Please be more specific. What elements of United States military culture are in need of improvement? And are these improvements designed to make it better at its mission or do you have some other purpose in mind?

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but the Duffel Blog makes some fine suggestions every week...

[rpmGator]

It only works if they forget a woman is in trouble, and don't do something stupid to save her. It can get people killed when they act differently based on who it is in trouble.

If they go in after a soldier, its one thing. If they go in to save a woman it is another.