Diabetes Weight-Loss Study Ends Early With Surprising Result

[Dreamliner]

Diabetes and the Obesity Paradox:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...esity-paradox/

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

Monohydrate is the only one that isn't crap. Where do you get your supplement info from?

http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/

Creatine monohydrate causes bloating because it's stores water in the muscles, hence the word "monohydrate." This gives you that bloated fat-man look that gives you what they call "wet muscles" that make you look like the Pillsbury dough boy. This I know to be true first hand.

I use Creatine Ethyl Ester, but Creatine Alpha Ketoglutarate, and Creatine Ethyl Ester Malate (CEEM) are far superior types of creatine because they don't hold water and they give you that lean "dry muscle" look I want.

Here's where I go to buy.

http://nutrabio.com/Products/creatin...ter_malate.htm

[LeafUF]

http://www.utulsa.edu/academics/coll...hyl-ester.aspx

The analysis differs with what you know to be true. This is one of many studies you will find recommending people stick with the "tried and true" monohydrate.

[LeafUF]

And from the examine link I supplied before.

16.5. Creatine Ethyl Ester

Creatine ethyl ester increases muscle levels of creatine to a lesser degree than creatine monohydrate.[26] It may also result in higher serum creatinine levels[405] due to creatine ethyl ester being converted into creatinine via non-enzymatic means in an environment similar to the digestive tract,[406][407] and at equal doses to creatine monohydrate ethyl ester has failed to increase water weight after 28 days of administration (indicative of muscle deposition rates of creatine, which are seemingly absent with ethyl ester).[408]

Creatine ethyl ester is more a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine,[406] and was originally created in an attempt to bypass the creatine transporter, and is currently being studied as treatment for situations in which there are a lack of creatine transporters (alongside cyclocreatine as another possible example);[409] its efficacy may rely on intravenous administration, however.

Creatine Ethyl Ester (CEE) may legitimately be the only available form of creatine which actually doesn't confer any benefits following oral ingestion

For the general population, supplementation creatine ethyl ester is likely to have negligible effects. Direct studies on creatine ethyl ester show it less effective than creatine monohydrate, on par with placebo.[26]

Creatine ethyl ester is 82.4% creatine by weight, and thus would give 8.24g of active creatine for a dosage of 10 grams.[256]

[ATL_Gator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I may be wrong but I don't think so. There was news recently about very low calorie diets effectively reversing diabetes. But in addition to the study I referenced, subsequent studies appeared to show that symptoms eventually return.

I don't think it's fatalism to acknowledge that many of us have diseases that can't be cured but can perhaps be controlled. I have two of them, asthma and hypertension.

My growing suspicion is that conscious weight-loss may not be the answer for anything. I'm not even sure that it's helpful for the morbidly obese.

To date, I'm aware of no clinical study that shows weight-loss increasing longevity. On the other hand, there is evidence that weight-loss decreases longevity.

I suspect that, end the end, we'd all be healthier and happier if we stopped trying to lose weight.

BUT...

When I was 265, I had hyper-tension (per my doctor). For 3-4 tests by my doctor (and some on my own) spaced a month apart, I ran upper 140's / mid 90's. I was on medication to control it. Took Lisinopril (sp?) for 6 months and had to stop due to experiencing an unwanted side effect (chronic dry cough). Switched to Norvasc 10mg and was on that for 3-4 years.

I am not currently taking any medication, and haven't for almost 5 years.

Am I not cured of that condition? At least for the short term? At one point in near history, I needed assistance to manage my BP, now I no longer need it.

I recognize that I may suffer hyper-tension again in the future simply due genetics (like I say, can't beat em)... but that doesn't change the notion that I do not need assistance at this time.

-----

And I sternly disagree with your last statement, if only on the happiness part alone.

Comparing my happiness now at 190-195 vs my happiness at 265... VASTLY different. I was miserable when I was heavy. Sure, there were things that would temporarily overcome the misery and give me joy, but in large part and most of the time, I was not happy. What's worse, I have noticed that I eat significantly different when I am not happy.

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

And from the examine link I supplied before.

If that test tells you one thing and you believe it then good for you, but I know what it did to me and I'll never again use the monohydrate formula. I hate that Pillsbury dough-boy look of wet muscles. I think it's designed for skinny guys that want to bulk-up fast.

[LeafUF]

Originally Posted by Gatorrick22

If that test tells you one thing and you believe it then good for you, but I know what it did to me and I'll never again use the monohydrate formula. I hate that Pillsbury dough-boy look of wet muscles. I think it's designed for skinny guys that want to bulk-up fast.

Haha your mind is pretty much made up and no matter what I say you will tell me that I am wrong and the studies are wrong and your experience is the truth. Its your money so feel free to keep spending it how you see fit. I'm sure the guy at gnc appreciates it.

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

Haha your mind is pretty much made up and no matter what I say you will tell me that I am wrong and the studies are wrong and your experience is the truth. Its your money so feel free to keep spending it how you see fit. I'm sure the guy at gnc appreciates it.

If a doctor tells you how a medicine/supplements are supposed to act in your body and it doesn't, but instead does nothing close to what they told you, are you then wrong or is you doctor wrong?

I'd get a second opinion before I ever go against what my body is telling me. Doctors are wrong much, much, more often than some people think.

[LeafUF]

Of course you should do what you feel is best for you. But you are making claims that are false to the majority of the population. Based on scientific studies done on individuals cee was shown to be less effective than monohydrate and on par with placebo. Further the bloating you so worry about has been shown to not be an issue for those who keep their diet in check. I don't know a single respected trainer that would recommend any form of creatine other than mono. I'll keep taking my mono.

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

Of course you should do what you feel is best for you. But you are making claims that are false to the majority of the population. Based on scientific studies done on individuals cee was shown to be less effective than monohydrate and on par with placebo. Further the bloating you so worry about has been shown to not be an issue for those who keep their diet in check. I don't know a single respected trainer that would recommend any form of creatine other than mono. I'll keep taking my mono.

Optimum Nutrition (Monohydrate Creatine)

The most basic and least expensive form of creatine. Monohydrate is onsidered as the original creatine, useful for beginners and those who have not tried a creatine product yet. Some bloating may occur and a loading phase is recommended to achieve maximum resaults. Optimum Nutrition Creatine is a cost effective, plain and simple product that just works. Optimum Nutrition is a top brand when it comes to bodybuilding supplements.

Look CRT is good for strength and power but you will get wet muscles from it. I have never said it doesn't work, but it doesn't work the way I'd like it to work. That's why I don't use the oldest form of creatine anymore. It's how my body is affected that concerns me personally. So if it's good for you and you like it then fine, but don't tell me I'm wrong about how it affects my body personally, because you don't know a thing about me or what it's affects are on me.

In the end I ran out of my last bit of CRT two years ago and I'm done with it and the other rendition of it for now. I'll just stick to my beef protein and amino acids to supplement my nutritional needs.

[LeafUF]

Originally Posted by Gatorrick22

Look CRT is good for strength and power but you will get wet muscles from it. I have never said it doesn't work, but it doesn't work the way I'd like it to work. That's why I don't use the oldest form of creatine anymore. It's how my body is affected that concerns me personally. So if it's good for you and you like it then fine, but don't tell me I'm wrong about how it affects my body personally, because you don't know a thing about me or what it's affects are on me.

In the end I ran out of my last bit of CRT two years ago and I'm done with it and the other rendition of it for now. I'll just stick to my beef protein and amino acids to supplement my nutritional needs.

So its ok for you to tell me how something will effect me and others yet I cant tell you that you are wrong about that? Look you are so misguided on creatine that I swear you get all of your information from a supplement company trying to sell you the latest and greatest formula for top dollar.

The fact is that creatine works because it draws water into your muscles. And having water in the muscles does not make them look less defined or make you look bloated. Intramuscular water does not have the same effect as subcutaneous water. Creatine does not cause you to hold water under the skin where it would cause you to look bloated or soft.

I work with people who compete in bodybuilding men and women and even the females are taking creatine monohydrate. They do not look doughy. They look ripped and muscular. Just as I do not have whatever the eff you think wet muscles describes. I imagine if I had a bloating problem you wouldnt be able to use my veins like a road map.

So, tell you what you stop telling me that creatine monohydrate is crap and I will stop trying to tell you that other forms are just overpriced less effective wastes of money. And by the way I am the only one here backing up anything I say with actual evidence, to which you completely dismiss based on a supplement companies description and your personal experience which could have had countless other variables involved.

[Gatorrick22]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

So its ok for you to tell me how something will effect me and others yet I cant tell you that you are wrong about that? Look you are so misguided on creatine that I swear you get all of your information from a supplement company trying to sell you the latest and greatest formula for top dollar.

The fact is that creatine works because it draws water into your muscles. And having water in the muscles does not make them look less defined or make you look bloated. Intramuscular water does not have the same effect as subcutaneous water. Creatine does not cause you to hold water under the skin where it would cause you to look bloated or soft.

I work with people who compete in bodybuilding men and women and even the females are taking creatine monohydrate. They do not look doughy. They look ripped and muscular. Just as I do not have whatever the eff you think wet muscles describes. I imagine if I had a bloating problem you wouldnt be able to use my veins like a road map.

So, tell you what you stop telling me that creatine monohydrate is crap and I will stop trying to tell you that other forms are just overpriced less effective wastes of money. And by the way I am the only one here backing up anything I say with actual evidence, to which you completely dismiss based on a supplement companies description and your personal experience which could have had countless other variables involved.

What it (CRT) does to/for me is fact, that's all I'm imparting on this "opinion" thread! Now if you want to take this to an accusatory level then let me know.

[LeafUF]

Originally Posted by Gatorrick22

What it (CRT) does to/for me is fact, that's all I'm imparting on this "opinion" thread! Now if you want to take this to an accusatory level them let me know.

Accusatory? What for? You called something crap and said it did all of these negative things then I told you that it wasnt the case and provided information as to why. I have no problem with you choosing anything you think is best for you, the only thing I am trying to get across here is that your experience is not the standard for creatine supplementation within the larger population.

[Gatorrick22]

It sucks!

I'll never use it again.

[Gatormb]

Good stuff guys. I'm enjoying your comments. Didn't know about this thread.

But I gotta say it......This thread is worthless without pics!

Just some personal observations. I'm a big guy. 58, overweight but built like a tackle. I'm down 35 lbs to a little over 300 eating low carbs and no alcohol in the last two months. Blood sugar has dropped from 140-150 range to 90. Take only a water pill & me form in. BP 117/75.

Doing CLA. Anybody have any comments on it? Seems to be a lot of positive study. Promotes fat metabolism and lean muscle mass. Now starting to add some weight training. Just basics at home using perfect pushup, dumb bells and a 40lb kettle bell.

For somebody like me sugar (carbs) is enemy #1.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

CLA's efficacy is dubious at best. In studies where it's worked, you'd need to spend about $7/day on CLA to get the effects.

Worst yet, the only studies that showed positive effect were backed by a supplement company.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

In fact, there are studies that show it has a negative effect on diabetes and heart disease markers:

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/9/1516.full

My hunch is it probably won't hurt to try it (I have in the past, seemed like a waste when I did), but keep it within reason and don't be afraid to attribute positive markers (weight loss, etc.) to hard work you're doing elsewhere.

[Gatormb]

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/...search&key=cla

I consider LEF to be reputable.

In the May 2002 issue of the Journal of Nutrition, a study was done to ascertain the effects of CLA on calorie burning and fat storage in mice. CLA was shown to lower the amount of ingested food that was stored as body fat. CLA also increased the amount of fat excreted in the feces. The study found that CLA induced a reduction in body fat mass on mice fed either a calorie restricted or normal diet. The scientists defined the term "energy expenditure" as being the amount of food ingested minus the food retained on the body carcass and in the feces. CLA-fed mice showed a 74% increase in energy expenditure. The scientists thus concluded that the lower amount of ingested food stored on the body carcass was accounted for by this significant increase in energy expenditure.[21]

This new finding corroborates a study conducted at Louisiana State University where feeding male mice a CLA-enriched diet for six weeks resulted in 43% to 88% lower body fat, especially in regard to abdominal fat. This occurred even if the mice were fed a high-fat diet. The effect was due partly to reduced calorie intake by CLA-supplemented mice and partly to a shift in their metabolism, including a higher metabolic rate.[9]

In a study performed at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, mice supplemented with only .5% of CLA showed up to 60% lower body fat and up to 14% increased lean body mass compared to controls. The researchers discovered that CLA-fed animals showed greater activity of enzymes involved in the delivery of fatty acids to the muscle cells and the utilization of fat for energy, while the enzymes facilitating fat deposition were inhibited.[8]

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...search&key=cla

Super CLA Blend with Guarana and Sesame Lignans
1000 mg 120 softgels
Item Catalog Number: 00819

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) refers to a group of positional and geometric isomers of linoleic acid, which are found primarily in meat and dairy products. CLA has been shown in a number of studies to have a wide variety of benefits with regards to the immune system, cardiovascular protection, blood sugar maintenance, lipid profiles and body composition.89-103

In studies that support the use of CLA in a weight loss program, the amount of CLA used varies from 1.7 to 12 grams per day. Those studies included:

A study that showed a dose of 3.4 g CLA per day for 12 weeks seems to be sufficient to reduce body fat mass (BFM) significantly in overweight and obese humans.97
Another study on human subjects that showed 3.2 g per day of CLA increased lean body mass over a 12 week peri-od.98
A six-month study on healthy or overweight adults showed CLA decreased body fat mass in specific regions of the body for all participants.100
Another six-month study on healthy overweight people showed that supplementation with CLA prevented weight gain dur-ing the holiday season.102 Modest loss in fat mass has been shown using 3.2 grams per day of CLA.103

Sesame lignans have been shown to stimulate fatty acid oxidation in the liver, and help stimulate lipolysis (fat breakdown).104,105

This CLA formulation contains guarana with caffeine.106 Those who are hypersensitive to caffeine should take CLA without guarana.

$30 for 120 1000mg capsules. $1/day

[Dreamliner]

Why are we trying to take weight off of diabetics when there is no tenable link between weight-control and remission, and when we know that weight-loss does not prevent heart attacks and when we know that fat diabetics do better than thin diabetics anyway ?

[Gatormb]

Dream, I agree that weight is not the only factor in diabetes, but to say it is not a factor is false. Got this in an email link today that may shed some light. Yes it is an advertisement on health advice.

http://www.truthaboutabs.com/worst-aging-food.html

Before I tell you why wheat can actually speed up the aging process in your body, let's clarify some simple biochemistry in your body...

This deals with "glycation" in your body, and substances called Advanced Glycation End Products (AGEs). These nasty little compounds called AGEs speed up the aging process in your body including damage over time to your organs, your joints, and of course, wrinkled skin.

So with that said, what is one of the biggest factors that increase production of AGEs inside your body? This may surprise you, but high blood sugar levels over time dramatically increase age-accelerating AGEs in your body. This is why type 2 diabetics many times appear that they have not aged well and look older than their real age. But this age-increasing effect is not just limited to diabetics.

So, let's get back to how "whole wheat" relates to this...

Here is a little-known fact that's often covered up by the massive marketing campaigns by giant food companies that want you to believe that "whole wheat" is healthy for you... but the fact is that wheat contains a very unusual type of carbohydrate (not found in other foods) called Amylopectin-A, which has been found in some tests to spike your blood sugar higher than even pure table sugar.

In fact, amylopectin-A (from wheat) raises your blood sugar more than almost any other carbohydrate source on earth based on blood sugar response testing.

This means that wheat-based foods such as breads, bagels, cereals, muffins, and other baked goods often cause much higher blood sugar levels than most other carbohydrate sources. As you know now, the higher your average blood sugar levels are over time, the more AGEs are formed inside your body, which makes you age FASTER.

You've probably heard about the potential health-damaging effects of gluten (also found in wheat) in the news recently, but this blood sugar aspect we just covered is not talked about that often, and is yet another reason to reduce or eliminate wheat-based foods in your diet. Your body will thank you by aging slower and looking YOUNGER! And losing bodyfat is typically a fun side effect of eliminating or reducing wheat in your diet!